This post is waaay old and no one is likely to see this comment. But I'd still like to indulge my pedantic side and address the SomeGuy's complaint about translating honorifics.
"Master" is itself an honorific. It's used for boys too young to be addressed as Mister. It is better known in the UK than the US, though it is rarely used in either country these days.
Since it was more likely to be used for boys and young men of wealth or high birth - you just use the given name otherwise - it's fairly good approximation for -sama.
It's unfortunately less ideal in the colloquial sense. People from the US are more likely to think of plantation masters in the antebellum south if they aren't familiar with the term which leads to interpretations like SomeGuy's here.
Wow, a very interesting read. It just goes to show that you can't truely translate anything completely acurately, especially when a country's culture is intertwined with its language.
Thanks very much, it has been another inspiration to continue my Japanese studies.
If you will, please excuse the grammarian language that I will use.
It's interesting that the usually translated title,(1) "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro", contains a substantive with two objects; while the second translation,(2) "Sen and the Spiriting Away of Chihiro", is essentially a noun phrase consisting of a noun and a substantive. I say that this is interesting because title (1) semantically differs from title (2): In title (1), we are focused on the action of the "spiriting away" of two equal objects, indicated by the placement of the coordinating conjunction. The spiriting away indeed does consist of two objects, but we seem to infer that both are taken as a single unit. In contrast, title (2) focuses our attention that the constituents, while still grammatically equal (they're both substantives), somehow experience a disconnection, a separation, a non-unity.
Title (1) does not really give us the sense of disconnection because both objects are take together, thus indicating no lack on any part. There is still a united meaning in the title, which places our expectations in an ambiguous place. Title (2), on the other hand, gives us a subtle hint to what is going to happen. This grammatical construction cleverly underlines the feeling of loss -- that meaning has been partially taken away from someone. We see a person contrasted with an action made into something substantial. They almost seem to "move" away from one another; rather, one moves away from the other. It's interesting how a slightly different grammatical construction tends to "capture" a suitable meaning, while, paradoxically, expanding the meaning so we are no longer in strict possession of it.
You make a very powerful argument for needing to understand both the subtleties of the Japanese language and culture to be able to fully appreciate one of Miyazaki's works, as well as many other things in anime as a whole. Yet another reason for me to want to learn Japanese. ^^
Miss Anonymous: ARE YOU CALLING THE PLIGHT OF PIZZA EVERYWHERE STUPID?!?!? >:O
Never before have I seen the translation fiasco explained in such great detail. The language differences don't seem too different, I wonder why people make such a big deal out of it sometimes. Oh and sorry for getting off-topic but where might I find the caption battle?
The way I see it, this was one thing we studied out of seven or eight others, and it was at the very end of the semester (and since we were running late our time to study Spirited Away actually got squished). I knew squat when we discussed The Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, and His Dark Materials . . . heh, and literally, a lot of the more quiet students in that class were a lot more involved with the Spirited Away discussions (closet otaku!).
You know, when I knew more in high school than a teacher did, I was an asshole. How come this was so different? Im just kidding, although I did get that feeling sometimes in a couple classes. The teacher thinking "why is here, he knows it already?"
I knew about the fact that translating from Japanese to English always causes problems when it comes to honorifics...some manga choose to keep them, some don't. But I didn't realize that lines were warped quite that much from translation!
That really is a great paper. ^_^
That was really good SomeGuy! It's really amazing how you were able to make the connections between all of the differences, as well as their intricate meanings with the characters. Awesome job is all I can say.
That was very insightful! I tend to watch everything in the dub, because... well, habit. I don't like reading on a screen for so long.
The fact that the Japanese have such a sensitivity to the word "I" and formality in language definitly says something about them as a culture and what they place importance on.
Chabadega
Otakuite | Posted 10/12/16 | Reply
This post is waaay old and no one is likely to see this comment. But I'd still like to indulge my pedantic side and address the SomeGuy's complaint about translating honorifics.
"Master" is itself an honorific. It's used for boys too young to be addressed as Mister. It is better known in the UK than the US, though it is rarely used in either country these days.
Since it was more likely to be used for boys and young men of wealth or high birth - you just use the given name otherwise - it's fairly good approximation for -sama.
It's unfortunately less ideal in the colloquial sense. People from the US are more likely to think of plantation masters in the antebellum south if they aren't familiar with the term which leads to interpretations like SomeGuy's here.
Fyraga
Otakuite | Posted 07/21/09 | Reply
very interesting paper! now i want to see it w/ eng subs^-^
NightBeck
Otaku Eternal | Posted 03/13/08 | Reply
I remember this one well. It was fascinating then, and it's still fascinating now.
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 03/12/08 | Reply
@Pleiades Rising:
Pleiades . . . you're awesome.
Fantasy Hearts
Senior Otaku | Posted 03/12/08 | Reply
Wow, a very interesting read. It just goes to show that you can't truely translate anything completely acurately, especially when a country's culture is intertwined with its language.
Thanks very much, it has been another inspiration to continue my Japanese studies.
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/11/08 | Reply
If you will, please excuse the grammarian language that I will use.
It's interesting that the usually translated title,(1) "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro", contains a substantive with two objects; while the second translation,(2) "Sen and the Spiriting Away of Chihiro", is essentially a noun phrase consisting of a noun and a substantive. I say that this is interesting because title (1) semantically differs from title (2): In title (1), we are focused on the action of the "spiriting away" of two equal objects, indicated by the placement of the coordinating conjunction. The spiriting away indeed does consist of two objects, but we seem to infer that both are taken as a single unit. In contrast, title (2) focuses our attention that the constituents, while still grammatically equal (they're both substantives), somehow experience a disconnection, a separation, a non-unity.
Title (1) does not really give us the sense of disconnection because both objects are take together, thus indicating no lack on any part. There is still a united meaning in the title, which places our expectations in an ambiguous place. Title (2), on the other hand, gives us a subtle hint to what is going to happen. This grammatical construction cleverly underlines the feeling of loss -- that meaning has been partially taken away from someone. We see a person contrasted with an action made into something substantial. They almost seem to "move" away from one another; rather, one moves away from the other. It's interesting how a slightly different grammatical construction tends to "capture" a suitable meaning, while, paradoxically, expanding the meaning so we are no longer in strict possession of it.
TwistedCyberChick
Grand Otaku | Posted 03/10/08 | Reply
I guess I'll have to watch it in Japanese now...
You make a very powerful argument for needing to understand both the subtleties of the Japanese language and culture to be able to fully appreciate one of Miyazaki's works, as well as many other things in anime as a whole. Yet another reason for me to want to learn Japanese. ^^
Miss Anonymous: ARE YOU CALLING THE PLIGHT OF PIZZA EVERYWHERE STUPID?!?!? >:O
ShadowLight
Otaku Eternal | Posted 03/09/08 | Reply
This definitely shows why we call you a wordy bastard
Truly incredible and powerful essay. I learned quite a lot from it.
The crazy bubbly shadow
Kami-chan.x3
Bubblegum'd! (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/09/08 | Reply
Thats awesome!
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 03/08/08 | Reply
@EtherForce:
Probably on the official theOtaku.com world, once I get that back up and running again. Probably next week.
EtherForce
Otakuite++ | Posted 03/08/08 | Reply
Never before have I seen the translation fiasco explained in such great detail. The language differences don't seem too different, I wonder why people make such a big deal out of it sometimes. Oh and sorry for getting off-topic but where might I find the caption battle?
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
@Schultzie:
The way I see it, this was one thing we studied out of seven or eight others, and it was at the very end of the semester (and since we were running late our time to study Spirited Away actually got squished). I knew squat when we discussed The Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter, and His Dark Materials . . . heh, and literally, a lot of the more quiet students in that class were a lot more involved with the Spirited Away discussions (closet otaku!).
'Sides, there were bigger assholes in that class.
Schultzie
Getaway Driver (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
@SomeGuy:
You know, when I knew more in high school than a teacher did, I was an asshole. How come this was so different? Im just kidding, although I did get that feeling sometimes in a couple classes. The teacher thinking "why is here, he knows it already?"
Oh well, I guess we will never know.
mewmewpudding
Otaku Eternal | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
Ahaha. Nice!
It's always great when you know more than the teacher.
phosphorene
Otakuite+ | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
I knew about the fact that translating from Japanese to English always causes problems when it comes to honorifics...some manga choose to keep them, some don't. But I didn't realize that lines were warped quite that much from translation!
That really is a great paper. ^_^
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
@mewmewpudding:
It was an "A" paper, yeah. My prof' also mentioned that "this was a very hard paper to mark, because you know a lot of things that I don't."
Definitely one of the higher points in my academic career.
mewmewpudding
Otaku Eternal | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
It's very amazing that you were able to make such connections. I would never be able to do that.
A great read! I feel like I should watch the movie in both languages now to compare. *laughs*
I bet you got a good grade (or whatever it was that you received from writing this.)
Kastom
Otaku Princess | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
That was really good SomeGuy! It's really amazing how you were able to make the connections between all of the differences, as well as their intricate meanings with the characters. Awesome job is all I can say.
I'd rather see in shades of gray.
CassieR
Otakuite+ | Posted 03/07/08 | Reply
That was very insightful! I tend to watch everything in the dub, because... well, habit. I don't like reading on a screen for so long.
The fact that the Japanese have such a sensitivity to the word "I" and formality in language definitly says something about them as a culture and what they place importance on.