I understand perfectly where you are coming from. People are different and all ave differen views, so it is very hard to decide on what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. I know it is hard to account for everyone, especially when some members are not quite teens yet, or might be underage. Not ot mention some people may think the line is too high or too low on images. Cencorship is very tough, and I say kudos to anyone who can even deal with it!
I still like hearing about what you are up to though. You haven’t posted pictures of your cute dog in like forever! :p Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!
Anyway… I’m always tempted to say, here! The line is here! Though that’s just me being silly and literal so I’ll not do that and instead address what you’ve written here with what I think.
I think what makes censorship such a hot topic at times is when people are unwilling to give and take. They see things a certain way and expect others to see it too. I’m not saying everyone does this; I’m going more on what I’ve seen in the people around me while growing up.
I don’t know about OtakuBoards having a bigger issue, I’ve reported quite a bit of stuff that was snuck in here by members who had simply waited until they gained auto approval. I can’t point you to any of them because each instance I reported was removed. So I think the difference between theOtaku and OtakuBoards is that the format of OB makes content much more visible where theOtaku has issues to, it’s just not so easily spotted.
I know all about the rpg and issue you speak of. How could I not? >_> I helped my mom find the original terms of service before they were re-posted. In that respect the incident was unique in that it was a reminder that with the change over the terms had not been restored yet. I know she was very appreciative of how that was shortly addressed after that.
Of course you don’t consider the post pornographic, after all, like you said, people have different opinions as to what they consider unacceptable. I will not go there because even though I have chosen to not be part of any religion, I was raised to be that way so I clearly see how that is to those of my mom’s faith considered in that light.
I personally think you took the best action, removing the link. That let the person who posted the material keep it up and satisfied those who felt the link was not appropriate. It was in my opinion, a fair compromise. I think the fact that they bothered to complain to you only proves that they know you consider complaints fairly. If you didn’t she would not have bothered.
Now for that in-between material I think you just have to take it case by case really, because it is so subjective and therefore next to impossible to classify it clearly. DeviantART has an advantage in that it has a mature filter where theOtaku does not.
Most of the changes to OB, other than the ratings had happened before I joined. I do agree that most people are willing to post responsibly. It usually is pretty easy to spot those who do not.
I agree that it is a parent’s responsibility to monitor what their kids can or cannot do online. I’m a very responsible kid so it’s easier for my mom since I prefer to steer clear of trouble online. :p Anyway, a bit wordy, but it explains how you see things very well James. ^_^
Truly, I know I can't give a good, long comment back after reading this. All the other comments always seem so well composed and bring up things that make me think. Which, of course, I'm not all that good at. *shifty eyes*
Censorship is definitely one of the biggest controversies almost anywhere you look. In libraries, schools, the Internet... I think we've done a great job here, and I'm positive you've done a wonderful job on theO boards.
I like when there is a warning if something is going to be a bit over the top, but that always can't happen. That's why we need older users who can make decisions to skip over it. Younger children shouldn't be here if they don't want to run into possibly 'questionable' things. Not that there really are too many, but there are a few now and again.
I'm very open and laid-back about things like that, but there is a point where a line has to be drawn. And that's the WONDERFUL point you brought up.
Great, great article, it was wonderfully written. (Jeez, I need some new vocabulary words...)
Meh, sorry I couldn't give you a better and more intelligent response. :P
Unfortunately, I can't read the whole thing right now, but from what I've skimmed through, I tend to agree. Censorship is a tough issue, especially in the United States -- the first amendment certainly adds to that. And everyone's definition of what is and isn't "mature" differs a lot. In my experience, I'd consider myself really lenient on most stuff; about the only thing I feel is too mature for a site like this is porn that is gratuitous, without any artistic merit, and shows, well, everything. My parents, though, think otherwise -- I've actually gotten a "chat" from my mom once when she found me drawing a picture of two guys kissing (chastely, I might add).
Moderating a site as big as The Otaku is quite a task, but I feel that the staff here has really done a good job of keeping the site clean, yet still openminded.
well, censorship is really difficult issue to discuss (in my mind). the only reason being is there is a giant grey area. why? because your idea of mature and obscene can be totally different from my idea of mature. but it is a very serious issue.
i feel as if that language and inappropiate pictures/comments are something that should be monitered. while i feel as if someone's opinions and feelings should be expressed, this is the internet, and you're not just showing or saying this to your friends or family, but everyone in the entire world can see these things. a great example is when i went to school, i went to a magnet school so our bus picked us up at an elemenetary school. we would wait inside the cafeteria and i overhead a few of the girls (who were in about the first grade) talking about myspace, and various other sites that i find very inappropiate for kids their age. which leads me to believe that anyone of those kids could fake an age and come on to this site or any site! so if they grow up reading profanity, seeing mature rated content, then i can't say that's the best way for a kid to grow up.
but i realize we can't make drastic changes because of kids that break the rules. BUT, we can put limits on how much profanity can be used, or the limit of mature content. like for instance, no "f" word. you can find other words than that word. (this is geared towards forums)
for fanfics and pictures, i think it's a bit easier to judge. for fanfics, if it's mature, then post a "MATURE" warning and state why. if someone gets offended, then they shouldn't have read it and they were warned. for pictures, excessive nudity. sillouettes maybe, but no full blown pictures like play boys.
and that's my opinion on this whole rating thing. whether anyone agrees with this or not, it's beyond me.
All I can say for Fan Words at least is that I have a Canadian mentality of PG-13 - European opinion of language, sexuality and mature content and an American opinion of violence. So it's pretty chill as long as nothing's too obviously gratuitous.
It's a tricky line. Still, all in all, I'd like to think we're doin' a pretty decent job of keeping on it.
Abundant Love (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 06/28/08 | Reply
This makes me remember back to when you were first talking to me about promoting me to administrator and some of my shortcomings that I'd have to work on. Being really strict in this area was one of things you mentioned. Looking back, I really have become a lot more relaxed and now I share a lot of the same views you expressed here.
I still don't think I'm quite as patient as you when it comes to dealing with nagging complaints though.
But mundane or rather the simple things going on in people's life is often what's interesting. We like knowing that others are doing well or just enjoying a simple day of relaxing. ^_^
I think Censorship is a very hard line to draw. With so many views out there as to what's considered acceptable, it makes it very hard to find an acceptable or agreeable compromise. Even then, you still have to set guidelines as to just how far or not far you yourself will go.
I'm not going to comment on that rpg because from my cultural and religious upbringing, it crosses a line that we consider unacceptable. You will say it's not porn, but by the standards I live by it is. However, like you said, if someone finds something objectionable, they don't have to read it, they can merely skip it and move on.
But that's not the point other than to say I do like that you look to meet people half way or rather that you take their concerns seriously. So removing the link was in my opinion a fair action.
It's one thing to remove a link and yet another to remove a post. On some level, that would be pushing it in my opinion. I might find such things distasteful, but I don't have to read it either.
I guess it is easier for me to accept that but then I'm not a parent with younger children. Though I would also argue that it is a parent's responsibility to oversee what their children can read online, not the site or staff's job.
Hmmm... I can't comment on thread ratings.^^ That must have been before I joined so I have no idea what you are talking about really. It sounds like it didn't work very well though.
Anyway, don't apologize for the length of your post. ^_~ It was an interesting read.
Since I know the rpg in question, I think removing the link was a fair compromise. But then as you said, the line of what one considers acceptable varies for people and I understand the cultural background of the people who objected to it. By their understanding, it was well over the line even if you or I may not see it that way.
But that's not the point of your post, I'm only trying to say I can understand why the objections happened in the first place. Plus you and I have the problem of seeing things from growing up with material that to the older generation was considered pornographic. What's allowed and considered acceptable today, to them never was. So that's something to consider when getting a complaint as well. Cultural and age differences since that will overshadow how people see things. Before you and I were born, that post would have been considered in that light. Anyway...
When I joined the rating was already in place, but it was never used properly so it was a good thing to get rid of it. I don't see it being used correctly if returned so doing so just seems like it would be a headache.
Now as for the line, I think you have to just do your best to strike a balance and do like you just did, weight in people's concerns and make a decision that you feel fits things as best as possible. I personally think removing the link was a good compromise. The rpg in question didn't need to be altered, but addressing the concern like that showed maturity on your part, in my opinion.
Anyway, instead of getting long winded, I'll end it since I pretty much agree with most of what you've said.
Baron of Terribad (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 06/27/08 | Reply
Pretty interesting post.
In general, I would say I have agreed with the decisions you and the rest of the staff have made regarding censorship. The compromise of allowing for looser restrictions in the RP areas, while keeping the tighter restrictions in the regular discussion forums, is pretty reasonable to me.
As for the magical line ... there is definitely no one magical line for everyone, although all of us have our limits. I would say I am one of the more lenient people around regarding what I would tolerate, but even I have things where I'd be like, "Um ... no. Don't post that ever." (Mainly disgusting crap like goatse and Tubgirl and whatnot lol. God, dealing with those was a nightmare. I still have mental scars from deleting all those pictures from posts that one time.)
miniwolf tribe
Otakuite++ | Posted 09/03/08 | Reply
I understand perfectly where you are coming from. People are different and all ave differen views, so it is very hard to decide on what is appropriate and what is not appropriate. I know it is hard to account for everyone, especially when some members are not quite teens yet, or might be underage. Not ot mention some people may think the line is too high or too low on images. Cencorship is very tough, and I say kudos to anyone who can even deal with it!
Aaryanna
Otaku Legend | Posted 07/04/08 | Reply
I still like hearing about what you are up to though. You haven’t posted pictures of your cute dog in like forever! :p Fix it! Fix it! Fix it!
Anyway… I’m always tempted to say, here! The line is here! Though that’s just me being silly and literal so I’ll not do that and instead address what you’ve written here with what I think.
I think what makes censorship such a hot topic at times is when people are unwilling to give and take. They see things a certain way and expect others to see it too. I’m not saying everyone does this; I’m going more on what I’ve seen in the people around me while growing up.
I don’t know about OtakuBoards having a bigger issue, I’ve reported quite a bit of stuff that was snuck in here by members who had simply waited until they gained auto approval. I can’t point you to any of them because each instance I reported was removed. So I think the difference between theOtaku and OtakuBoards is that the format of OB makes content much more visible where theOtaku has issues to, it’s just not so easily spotted.
I know all about the rpg and issue you speak of. How could I not? >_> I helped my mom find the original terms of service before they were re-posted. In that respect the incident was unique in that it was a reminder that with the change over the terms had not been restored yet. I know she was very appreciative of how that was shortly addressed after that.
Of course you don’t consider the post pornographic, after all, like you said, people have different opinions as to what they consider unacceptable. I will not go there because even though I have chosen to not be part of any religion, I was raised to be that way so I clearly see how that is to those of my mom’s faith considered in that light.
I personally think you took the best action, removing the link. That let the person who posted the material keep it up and satisfied those who felt the link was not appropriate. It was in my opinion, a fair compromise. I think the fact that they bothered to complain to you only proves that they know you consider complaints fairly. If you didn’t she would not have bothered.
Now for that in-between material I think you just have to take it case by case really, because it is so subjective and therefore next to impossible to classify it clearly. DeviantART has an advantage in that it has a mature filter where theOtaku does not.
Most of the changes to OB, other than the ratings had happened before I joined. I do agree that most people are willing to post responsibly. It usually is pretty easy to spot those who do not.
I agree that it is a parent’s responsibility to monitor what their kids can or cannot do online. I’m a very responsible kid so it’s easier for my mom since I prefer to steer clear of trouble online. :p Anyway, a bit wordy, but it explains how you see things very well James. ^_^
~*Aaryanna*~
mewmewpudding
Otaku Eternal | Posted 07/03/08 | Reply
Truly, I know I can't give a good, long comment back after reading this. All the other comments always seem so well composed and bring up things that make me think. Which, of course, I'm not all that good at. *shifty eyes*
Censorship is definitely one of the biggest controversies almost anywhere you look. In libraries, schools, the Internet... I think we've done a great job here, and I'm positive you've done a wonderful job on theO boards.
I like when there is a warning if something is going to be a bit over the top, but that always can't happen. That's why we need older users who can make decisions to skip over it. Younger children shouldn't be here if they don't want to run into possibly 'questionable' things. Not that there really are too many, but there are a few now and again.
I'm very open and laid-back about things like that, but there is a point where a line has to be drawn. And that's the WONDERFUL point you brought up.
Great, great article, it was wonderfully written. (Jeez, I need some new vocabulary words...)
Meh, sorry I couldn't give you a better and more intelligent response. :P
Kyrianne
Otaku Eternal | Posted 06/30/08 | Reply
Unfortunately, I can't read the whole thing right now, but from what I've skimmed through, I tend to agree. Censorship is a tough issue, especially in the United States -- the first amendment certainly adds to that. And everyone's definition of what is and isn't "mature" differs a lot. In my experience, I'd consider myself really lenient on most stuff; about the only thing I feel is too mature for a site like this is porn that is gratuitous, without any artistic merit, and shows, well, everything. My parents, though, think otherwise -- I've actually gotten a "chat" from my mom once when she found me drawing a picture of two guys kissing (chastely, I might add).
Moderating a site as big as The Otaku is quite a task, but I feel that the staff here has really done a good job of keeping the site clean, yet still openminded.
~Kyrianne
haseo luver92
Otaku Legend | Posted 06/29/08 | Reply
well, censorship is really difficult issue to discuss (in my mind). the only reason being is there is a giant grey area. why? because your idea of mature and obscene can be totally different from my idea of mature. but it is a very serious issue.
i feel as if that language and inappropiate pictures/comments are something that should be monitered. while i feel as if someone's opinions and feelings should be expressed, this is the internet, and you're not just showing or saying this to your friends or family, but everyone in the entire world can see these things. a great example is when i went to school, i went to a magnet school so our bus picked us up at an elemenetary school. we would wait inside the cafeteria and i overhead a few of the girls (who were in about the first grade) talking about myspace, and various other sites that i find very inappropiate for kids their age. which leads me to believe that anyone of those kids could fake an age and come on to this site or any site! so if they grow up reading profanity, seeing mature rated content, then i can't say that's the best way for a kid to grow up.
but i realize we can't make drastic changes because of kids that break the rules. BUT, we can put limits on how much profanity can be used, or the limit of mature content. like for instance, no "f" word. you can find other words than that word. (this is geared towards forums)
for fanfics and pictures, i think it's a bit easier to judge. for fanfics, if it's mature, then post a "MATURE" warning and state why. if someone gets offended, then they shouldn't have read it and they were warned. for pictures, excessive nudity. sillouettes maybe, but no full blown pictures like play boys.
and that's my opinion on this whole rating thing. whether anyone agrees with this or not, it's beyond me.
haseo
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 06/29/08 | Reply
All I can say for Fan Words at least is that I have a Canadian mentality of PG-13 - European opinion of language, sexuality and mature content and an American opinion of violence. So it's pretty chill as long as nothing's too obviously gratuitous.
It's a tricky line. Still, all in all, I'd like to think we're doin' a pretty decent job of keeping on it.
Desbreko
Abundant Love (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 06/28/08 | Reply
This makes me remember back to when you were first talking to me about promoting me to administrator and some of my shortcomings that I'd have to work on. Being really strict in this area was one of things you mentioned. Looking back, I really have become a lot more relaxed and now I share a lot of the same views you expressed here.
I still don't think I'm quite as patient as you when it comes to dealing with nagging complaints though.
Sabrina
Otaku Archangel | Posted 06/27/08 | Reply
But mundane or rather the simple things going on in people's life is often what's interesting. We like knowing that others are doing well or just enjoying a simple day of relaxing. ^_^
I think Censorship is a very hard line to draw. With so many views out there as to what's considered acceptable, it makes it very hard to find an acceptable or agreeable compromise. Even then, you still have to set guidelines as to just how far or not far you yourself will go.
I'm not going to comment on that rpg because from my cultural and religious upbringing, it crosses a line that we consider unacceptable. You will say it's not porn, but by the standards I live by it is. However, like you said, if someone finds something objectionable, they don't have to read it, they can merely skip it and move on.
But that's not the point other than to say I do like that you look to meet people half way or rather that you take their concerns seriously. So removing the link was in my opinion a fair action.
It's one thing to remove a link and yet another to remove a post. On some level, that would be pushing it in my opinion. I might find such things distasteful, but I don't have to read it either.
I guess it is easier for me to accept that but then I'm not a parent with younger children. Though I would also argue that it is a parent's responsibility to oversee what their children can read online, not the site or staff's job.
Hmmm... I can't comment on thread ratings.^^ That must have been before I joined so I have no idea what you are talking about really. It sounds like it didn't work very well though.
Anyway, don't apologize for the length of your post. ^_~ It was an interesting read.
-Sabrina
Rachmaninoff
Otaku Legend | Posted 06/27/08 | Reply
Since I know the rpg in question, I think removing the link was a fair compromise. But then as you said, the line of what one considers acceptable varies for people and I understand the cultural background of the people who objected to it. By their understanding, it was well over the line even if you or I may not see it that way.
But that's not the point of your post, I'm only trying to say I can understand why the objections happened in the first place. Plus you and I have the problem of seeing things from growing up with material that to the older generation was considered pornographic. What's allowed and considered acceptable today, to them never was. So that's something to consider when getting a complaint as well. Cultural and age differences since that will overshadow how people see things. Before you and I were born, that post would have been considered in that light. Anyway...
When I joined the rating was already in place, but it was never used properly so it was a good thing to get rid of it. I don't see it being used correctly if returned so doing so just seems like it would be a headache.
Now as for the line, I think you have to just do your best to strike a balance and do like you just did, weight in people's concerns and make a decision that you feel fits things as best as possible. I personally think removing the link was a good compromise. The rpg in question didn't need to be altered, but addressing the concern like that showed maturity on your part, in my opinion.
Anyway, instead of getting long winded, I'll end it since I pretty much agree with most of what you've said.
-Darren
Shinmaru
Baron of Terribad (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 06/27/08 | Reply
Pretty interesting post.
In general, I would say I have agreed with the decisions you and the rest of the staff have made regarding censorship. The compromise of allowing for looser restrictions in the RP areas, while keeping the tighter restrictions in the regular discussion forums, is pretty reasonable to me.
As for the magical line ... there is definitely no one magical line for everyone, although all of us have our limits. I would say I am one of the more lenient people around regarding what I would tolerate, but even I have things where I'd be like, "Um ... no. Don't post that ever." (Mainly disgusting crap like goatse and Tubgirl and whatnot lol. God, dealing with those was a nightmare. I still have mental scars from deleting all those pictures from posts that one time.)
Love thy Evangelion.