I agree that fansubbing is hurting the industry, but it's not just because people are dowloading the series, it's because a lot of those who watch and download the subs don't buy the DVD when it comes out and keep the downloads, and that what's killing the industry. Like a voice actor said on Ap show, "It isn't noble to steal from those who you respect." So overall, my stance is that until a series gets licensed in the US, it's fair use, but when it does get liscensed and comes out and you enjoyed the series, you have an obligation to delete the downloads and buy the series. Like others have said, both the industry and fans need to help each other on this issue, and the faster that happens, the better the industry will be.
CassieR, I just have to say how much I love the stuff you post since so much thought goes into it. It’s fun reading up on something like this when there is far more than just an opinion being stated. ^_^
And since you and Fasterikhead already went over the points that came to mind when I read it, I think I’ll just nod and be on my way. All in all, a fun read.
And as for how "anime is not going to come out simultaneously anytime soon," well... I'm sure you've already seen it, but take a look at this. Food for thought, eh? At the very least, more things to have fun debates about!
I know, I saw that as well! And it did suprise me. I also saw your comments on the quality and all. Still, I think this is a great step in the right direction. We'll have to see what the subtitle quality is like. I do think (maybe I'm mistaken) that Gonzo is a company with a lot of resources on both sides of the ocean, so they are probably in a better position than some to get an accurate subtitle translation. Because think we've all tried to read engrish in anime before! Note that its also the orignal producer who's releasing this, so I wonder how American companies feel about it. I'd guess they have to communicate about this, so that they don't create bad feelings.
Wonder if these subtitles will also be used when it eventually gets an American release.
However, I will say that I enjoyed your link to Gia's anime blog. There's a place I haven't been to in a while . . .
Definitely plenty of fun debates all around - and I gotta say, I couldn't ask for two more intelligent, more well-spoken individuals through which to see it.
I only claim that it's not primarily an ethical issue. Individual fans make their own choices on how to act, and we may judge them however we wish; I see no problem with that. But the source of that problem lies outside of the particular ethical dilemma, and outside of any option we take within it. The ultimate solution to the dilemma is not to figure out our best choice within it, but to make the conditions under which it first of all exists disappear. In a world where distributors compete directly with fansubbers, the moral difficulty (to download or not to download) doesn't even make sense anymore; it simply vanishes in a puff of smoke. That is the choice I am advocating, as I think it's the only one that has a shot at being permanent.
And as for how "anime is not going to come out simultaneously anytime soon," well... I'm sure you've already seen it, but take a look at this. Food for thought, eh? At the very least, more things to have fun debates about!
True, I don't think that filesharing and downloading is going to stop anytime soon. I don't know anyone who hasn't downloaded something and very few people who have stopped downloading now.
But let it never be said that this is first of all an ethical issue, which confuses the problem from the start. This is about demand seeking an adequate product, pure and simple - the sooner the fans and the industry understand this, the sooner the powers-that-be can move to create effective solutions.
I'm not really sure what you meant by that. It is an ethical decision. Plenty of people *don't* download a current show or make it a policy to still buy that show when it comes out, based on their personal ethics. I watched all of Fullmetal Alchemist long before it hit American shores outside of anime clubs, because I instantly fell in love with it. Yet, even though that love is gone, I now have almost all the DVDs, because I want tell the companies, the manga-ka that I did love it. That I want more like it. That’s just my personal ethical decision on how I justify watching fansubs.
I think the companies have taken notice. Yes, they move slowly, but consider how much money it takes to move into a new and unsure venture. I'd love to find out how successful the Death Note downloads were, because that is obviously them testing out the waters.
Still, I wonder if people won't still complain if the industry can get it up to three months between releases... Anime is not going to come out simultaneously anytime soon. There are a lot of issues, not the least of which is competing markets. Look at how many other English speaking countries don't get our shows a the exact same time, though I think that gap is closing as well. Some websites will offer their shows free online in the US, but block them in other countries.
I also think an issue here isn't just the fansubs when the show first comes out in Japan, but the easy availability of free when it's out in America. I think that if more American companies would simply even put their current releases up for direct fee download, that would be appealing. I'm not really a "watch it on my computer" kind of person. But that would still allow people to try things out for relatively cheap.
Heh, yes, I'm getting a bit dry on the subject as well. But I am enjoying debating the topic with you! We may not agree, but the discussion is interesting and challenging, none-the-less.
...one shouldn't try to idealize or justify [fansubbing] by saying it doesn't hurt the industry.
First of all, thanks for the links (I actually wish there were more of them!). Second, although I've already about squeezed myself dry on this topic, I shall try to make my point one more time. Does fansubbing and filetrading hurt the industry? Of course. An enormous amount of business is being lost on the domestic side, and that carries over to the folks back east (again, I'd be happy to wire some money over if anyone knew where there was an electronic tip jar). I think the number of people who try to "idealize or justify" it is pretty small, however (and, if anyone was confused, it certainly doesn't include me - you may notice that in my essay I never claim that fansubbing is a good thing). Most of us are fully aware that it's a problem for the industry. But the plain and simple fact is that it will continue to happen - regardless of any crackdowns short of the draconian, regardless of moral appeals to the fans' pity - because the industry just isn't offering a product that's anywhere near as convenient or timely. Close down one website, and the fans will find another. Beg them not to pirate a show while keeping it out of reach for months, and they will shrug and ignore you. At the moment it's like the industry is hoping that smoothbore muskets can stave off AK-47s.
Now, if some of the companies like Funimation really are planning on augmenting and upgrading their distribution and offering something that can compete directly with fansubs, then more power to them. I look forward to using such a service whenever it becomes available. But let it never be said that this is first of all an ethical issue, which confuses the problem from the start. This is about demand seeking an adequate product, pure and simple - the sooner the fans and the industry understand this, the sooner the powers-that-be can move to create effective solutions.
yugi567
Otakuite+ | Posted 03/25/08 | Reply
I agree that fansubbing is hurting the industry, but it's not just because people are dowloading the series, it's because a lot of those who watch and download the subs don't buy the DVD when it comes out and keep the downloads, and that what's killing the industry. Like a voice actor said on Ap show, "It isn't noble to steal from those who you respect." So overall, my stance is that until a series gets licensed in the US, it's fair use, but when it does get liscensed and comes out and you enjoyed the series, you have an obligation to delete the downloads and buy the series. Like others have said, both the industry and fans need to help each other on this issue, and the faster that happens, the better the industry will be.
Sabrina
Otaku Archangel | Posted 03/23/08 | Reply
CassieR, I just have to say how much I love the stuff you post since so much thought goes into it. It’s fun reading up on something like this when there is far more than just an opinion being stated. ^_^
And since you and Fasterikhead already went over the points that came to mind when I read it, I think I’ll just nod and be on my way. All in all, a fun read.
-Sabrina
CassieR
Otakuite+ | Posted 03/22/08 | Reply
@Fasteriskhead:
And as for how "anime is not going to come out simultaneously anytime soon," well... I'm sure you've already seen it, but take a look at this. Food for thought, eh? At the very least, more things to have fun debates about!
I know, I saw that as well! And it did suprise me. I also saw your comments on the quality and all. Still, I think this is a great step in the right direction. We'll have to see what the subtitle quality is like. I do think (maybe I'm mistaken) that Gonzo is a company with a lot of resources on both sides of the ocean, so they are probably in a better position than some to get an accurate subtitle translation. Because think we've all tried to read engrish in anime before! Note that its also the orignal producer who's releasing this, so I wonder how American companies feel about it. I'd guess they have to communicate about this, so that they don't create bad feelings.
Wonder if these subtitles will also be used when it eventually gets an American release.
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 03/21/08 | Reply
I'm SO not jumping into this today . . .
However, I will say that I enjoyed your link to Gia's anime blog. There's a place I haven't been to in a while . . .
Definitely plenty of fun debates all around - and I gotta say, I couldn't ask for two more intelligent, more well-spoken individuals through which to see it.
Fasteriskhead
Otakuite++ | Posted 03/21/08 | Reply
@CassieR:
I only claim that it's not primarily an ethical issue. Individual fans make their own choices on how to act, and we may judge them however we wish; I see no problem with that. But the source of that problem lies outside of the particular ethical dilemma, and outside of any option we take within it. The ultimate solution to the dilemma is not to figure out our best choice within it, but to make the conditions under which it first of all exists disappear. In a world where distributors compete directly with fansubbers, the moral difficulty (to download or not to download) doesn't even make sense anymore; it simply vanishes in a puff of smoke. That is the choice I am advocating, as I think it's the only one that has a shot at being permanent.
And as for how "anime is not going to come out simultaneously anytime soon," well... I'm sure you've already seen it, but take a look at this. Food for thought, eh? At the very least, more things to have fun debates about!
CassieR
Otakuite+ | Posted 03/21/08 | Reply
@Fasteriskhead:
True, I don't think that filesharing and downloading is going to stop anytime soon. I don't know anyone who hasn't downloaded something and very few people who have stopped downloading now.
But let it never be said that this is first of all an ethical issue, which confuses the problem from the start. This is about demand seeking an adequate product, pure and simple - the sooner the fans and the industry understand this, the sooner the powers-that-be can move to create effective solutions.
I'm not really sure what you meant by that. It is an ethical decision. Plenty of people *don't* download a current show or make it a policy to still buy that show when it comes out, based on their personal ethics. I watched all of Fullmetal Alchemist long before it hit American shores outside of anime clubs, because I instantly fell in love with it. Yet, even though that love is gone, I now have almost all the DVDs, because I want tell the companies, the manga-ka that I did love it. That I want more like it. That’s just my personal ethical decision on how I justify watching fansubs.
I think the companies have taken notice. Yes, they move slowly, but consider how much money it takes to move into a new and unsure venture. I'd love to find out how successful the Death Note downloads were, because that is obviously them testing out the waters.
Still, I wonder if people won't still complain if the industry can get it up to three months between releases... Anime is not going to come out simultaneously anytime soon. There are a lot of issues, not the least of which is competing markets. Look at how many other English speaking countries don't get our shows a the exact same time, though I think that gap is closing as well. Some websites will offer their shows free online in the US, but block them in other countries.
I also think an issue here isn't just the fansubs when the show first comes out in Japan, but the easy availability of free when it's out in America. I think that if more American companies would simply even put their current releases up for direct fee download, that would be appealing. I'm not really a "watch it on my computer" kind of person. But that would still allow people to try things out for relatively cheap.
Heh, yes, I'm getting a bit dry on the subject as well. But I am enjoying debating the topic with you! We may not agree, but the discussion is interesting and challenging, none-the-less.
Fasteriskhead
Otakuite++ | Posted 03/21/08 | Reply
...one shouldn't try to idealize or justify [fansubbing] by saying it doesn't hurt the industry.
First of all, thanks for the links (I actually wish there were more of them!). Second, although I've already about squeezed myself dry on this topic, I shall try to make my point one more time. Does fansubbing and filetrading hurt the industry? Of course. An enormous amount of business is being lost on the domestic side, and that carries over to the folks back east (again, I'd be happy to wire some money over if anyone knew where there was an electronic tip jar). I think the number of people who try to "idealize or justify" it is pretty small, however (and, if anyone was confused, it certainly doesn't include me - you may notice that in my essay I never claim that fansubbing is a good thing). Most of us are fully aware that it's a problem for the industry. But the plain and simple fact is that it will continue to happen - regardless of any crackdowns short of the draconian, regardless of moral appeals to the fans' pity - because the industry just isn't offering a product that's anywhere near as convenient or timely. Close down one website, and the fans will find another. Beg them not to pirate a show while keeping it out of reach for months, and they will shrug and ignore you. At the moment it's like the industry is hoping that smoothbore muskets can stave off AK-47s.
Now, if some of the companies like Funimation really are planning on augmenting and upgrading their distribution and offering something that can compete directly with fansubs, then more power to them. I look forward to using such a service whenever it becomes available. But let it never be said that this is first of all an ethical issue, which confuses the problem from the start. This is about demand seeking an adequate product, pure and simple - the sooner the fans and the industry understand this, the sooner the powers-that-be can move to create effective solutions.