Exactly, the people still need to be real. Obviously the one I was talking about isn't real since there was magic and other factors involved, but the author still worked to make the people involved feel real. So it didn't come across like a cheap excuse to advance the story.
True. The only downside to taking this stance is here:
...but I figure it's kind of a case of an acceptable break from reality,...
With that in mind, one can potentially justify anything by saying "it's not supposed to be a true-to-life representation". And that's . . . honestly, that's bearable.
But my sticking point, and I think yours as well, is that the better stories have real people in real situations acting as they would really act, regardless of the scenery. Fantasy is only fantasy because in reality there is no magic, there are no elves, we no longer fight with swords and lances and axes and maces and so on. Science fiction is science fiction because we have not colonised or made contact with worlds around the galaxy, we cannot travel faster than light, there are no ray guns.
But the people are real. The evil king of the Sandwaste could be the evil emperor of Titan VII could be the evil dictator of the Third Reich (Adolf Hitler). The cheeky sword-brandishing mercenary aiding the fledgling hero could be the cheeky gunslinging mercenary aiding the Jedi newbie could be the cheeky veteran marine aiding the upstart private.
So (and I think we're on the same page here) the deciding factor for me is Are The People Real. If every social interaction sequence feels like so much deliberate contrived bullshit designed to make the reader coo or squeal or fawn or otherwise falsely empathise with the character(s), then I can no longer tolerate it.
I meant to reply to this earlier but got side tracked by other stuff.
As per the convenient amnesia with an alter-ego taking over thing, I always figured it was justified in that when the other personality/entity is in control of the body, they can force the original into submission, thereby preventing it from witnessing the incident at all. Of course, that doesn't go very far into explaining how the original personality can coexist with the other without forcing it to submit in turn, but I figure it's kind of a case of an acceptable break from reality, as long as the story itself is decent.
Ace. No. Just no. You already touched on it with the bit on how it fails to explain the coexistence factor. You're not going to see something like that without some serious psychological issues, in addition to whatever hang ups would be necessary for such coexistence to even happen, theoretically that is.
It's an over played card that unfortunately needs some form of either magic or severe PTSD to justify it; and even that would be stretching if it's not done correctly. It's just an ever so convenient means to justify part of the story.
I've seen a few decent stories that used a form of it. But that was dealing with two seperate souls inhabiting the same body, which made it less of an excuse. And even then, the author still played the card of one being totally dominate over the other and set very strict boundaries as to how it could even happen in the first place.
No, I knew what you meant. But I still have several long series going at the same time myself. If you're worried about it being hard to keep track of, it isn't.
And also, the Sherlock Holmes stories are by no means a series. It's a collection of short stories, and three separate novels.
Again, I understand your concern about this. But I still advise you go get out and read.
Like I told you before, it's like following multiple television shows at the same time. You don't forget what happens in one show just because you watched four others, right? And you don't forget what happened in those other four just because you watched the one, right? Same concept.
oO I think I explained that wrong. I do read other stuff too. I just don't want to start another long series until I finish Holmes. I've read some single books and stuff online. Like your story and that rp Shinigami Dance. Oo
And good grief, girl. You've read some of my stuff, and Goodkind doesn't get any more graphic than that. He just . . . does it for longer periods of time. At times.
O rly? *stares at you* I'll keep that in mind then.
For example, the main character can just automatically read the language of some magical book because he's the 'seeker'.
No, he can automatically read the language of some magical book because his father made him memorise from cover to cover another magical book that he didn't actually know was magical at all. But yeah, the television show sucked.
And good grief, girl. You've read some of my stuff, and Goodkind doesn't get any more graphic than that. He just . . . does it for longer periods of time. At times.
I agree with the rant. I love it when an author takes the time to build the story so things fit and are actually believable. It feels like a joke when they don't.
I didn't read The Sword of Truth series because I hear that it gets graphic. So I watched the mini-series instead. Indi tells me that they butchered it, but it's LOADED with lots of cheap moments like your talking about.
For example, the main character can just automatically read the language of some magical book because he's the 'seeker'... That had me wanting to just gag. I stopped watching it cause I got tired of them pulling crap like that.
It gets old to see shows or books use cheap tactics like that. I really hate enjoying something only to later realize that the author totally pulled a lame stunt like the instant magic skill or music, etc.
The great thing about Sherlock Holmes is that the stories are individual, and rarely need prior knowledge to understand. Sure, it's great to read them all the way through nonstop, but I also like to use such things as a break between other books of different series.
Also, although I make a concerted effort to read any series I pick up in published order, I often stop reading it at some point to shift to another series, and then get back into it at a later time. It makes the experience more enjoyable, in my opinion, to allow myself to spend time in multiple universes instead of gorging myself on one author.
It's like eating. I love pizza. But pizza at every meal would get really boring after a while. (Not to mention unhealthy.) Be a broad reader; the books won't go anywhere.
All complaints about the actor aside, the character itself was what I was remarking on, and I was presenting it as a basic example of how to actually do the Magical Skill thing right.
One other way, I think, you could write in the sudden virtuosity would be shifting previously learned skills to a new field of talent.
I believe this is true, to an extent. However, to my mind the only manner in which baseball would translate to swords is if the character was wielding a claymore. Certainly a person's life prior to the story can better equip them for the new skills they must learn, but again I would call that at least some form of prior training. Again, as long as Ichigo Kurosaki was in a situation where he could use his raw strength to win a fight, he won. Any opponent who was capable of skills and techniques bred from arduous training generally beat the snot out of him, and he was forced to sit and take damage until, say, Byakuya Kuchiki decided to allow the battle to be determined by a single blow with the user's entire strength behind it, and Ichigo only "won" that one on a technicality.
You will never use the word "trope" again when I am discussing serious topics.
However, the ability of the alter ego to totally suppress the original consciousness (or in certain cases the surrogate consciousness, when the alter ego is the original character) is just a clever way to say "oh, he can't remember anything because he can't remember anything". It's a circular logic scenario, and circular logic is always assumed to be false. I do understand where you're coming from, but when you look straight at the concept all of the situational details fall away and you get left with a concept being used to explain itself.
I too have to agree on the magical powers/abilities cop-out being oftentimes simply retarded. It is one thing if you trained all of your life to do something impossibly difficult for normal folk, but to master this stuff in a week's time? Highly unlikely.
One other way, I think, you could write in the sudden virtuosity would be shifting previously learned skills to a new field of talent. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, one of the main characters becomes crazy-awesome at handling swords. The kid was also playing baseball fanatically from an early age, however, automatically giving him some of the wrist strength, arm movements and footwork needed for swordplay. He transposes his baseball skills by basically replacing his bat with a sword (stance and everything in one situation), but he still looks like a total Marty Stu dork in comparison to one of his friends who became a skilled Mafia man on intellect and hard work alone... starting at the age of six. (It really gets silly when the swordsman character decides he's going to wield a katana in one hand and three shorter swords in his other hand. It looks really cool, but after it sinks in, you got to go "WTF are you smoking, Ms Author?")
Pretty much a similar thing could be said about kids who would have worked their tails off doing laborious chores suddenly having the potential to be stronger, faster and have more stamina than their average peers. A real-life example would be how kids from my school district, which encompasses a residential city/not-quite the stereotypical suburb seen on television, really do not like playing football against kids from the northern part of the county. Many of those kids live or work on farms and have been doing all sorts of body-building activities since they were able to pick up a pail and carry it across the yard. Of course, not all the kids do that, but most of them who do get saddled with being linebackers because they're so damn huge.
...and really, the best thing Will Turner had going for him in any of the movies was that he was delicious-looking piece of man-meat. Any sort of argument about the pettiness of it all aside, the fact that Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp brought in the fan girls was part of the reason they were so confident about making two sequels. The only difference so far, from what I can tell, is that at least Sparrow/Depp can act. Turner/Bloom, on the other hand... it's pretty usual for those of the female persuasion to turn off their minds when he's on screen. While I don't mind a good-looking man in a movie, he should at least be able to act during it.
As per the convenient amnesia with an alter-ego taking over thing, I always figured it was justified in that when the other personality/entity is in control of the body, they can force the original into submission, thereby preventing it from witnessing the incident at all. Of course, that doesn't go very far into explaining how the original personality can coexist with the other without forcing it to submit in turn, but I figure it's kind of a case of an acceptable break from reality, as long as the story itself is decent. I thought it was done pretty well in the Batman Beyond movie.
But yeah, the instant superpowers just add water thing is pretty dumb. I can understand in the case of X-Men and other such series where it's a common occurrence that's stated to happen once a certain requirement (such as age) is met, but it tends to get overused for exclusive purposes and it's one of the leading causes of Mary Sue, which is a horrible disease that must be cured.
It really all depends on execution, but some tropes are just harder to successfully pull off without making people hate you. You'd be hard pressed to find a character that ended up being flanderized as successfully as Eric Matthews from Boy Meets World, but deadpan snarkers are generally considered a good thing (not that there aren't exceptions.)
And yeah, Will Turner was a pretty awful pirate for a guy who was being hyped as one of the most promising candidates to become one in the first movie, up until the whole being Davy Jones thing. His motivations seemed way off. Elizabeth seemed to end up being the most pirate-y of the main three characters, I thought.
Last edited by Ace at 6:27:57 PM EDT on August 3, 2009.
Getting good grades without studying or paying attention in class is impossible. You either have to do one or the other, and often you must do both. (Although I found the comic after I'd been mulling over this for a while, so that was purely incidental. I have no idea what Meyer did in the last book. All I know is that a lot of what she did in the first book was very very convenient and generic and vague.)
If you read enough good literature, you'll start to be able to distinguish the less-good literature more easily.
Also if you haven't already been recommended this, I suggest you get into Anne McCaffrey's The Dragonriders of Pern series, for a change of pace. I think it'll do you good.
I actually do use the "it's magic" card to explain the shapeshifting factor of my own work. It just happened to be a very specific sort of magic in a specific situation.
And there's still a lot of physiological and psychological factors that I had to take into account. But that part was fun, and not all that negative as it turned out. It also turned out to be less of an ability and more of a personality.
oO I guess it is cheap when authors do that. Though that means I have to look at the last book in Twilight and see what the author did with Bella, as cheap. =_= Is this what growing up is all about? Realizing that something you thought was really good, really isn't?
Indi
Dr. Mama Cat. (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/13/09 | Reply
@Allamorph:
Exactly, the people still need to be real. Obviously the one I was talking about isn't real since there was magic and other factors involved, but the author still worked to make the people involved feel real. So it didn't come across like a cheap excuse to advance the story.
~Crystia
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/13/09 | Reply
@Indi:
True. The only downside to taking this stance is here:
...but I figure it's kind of a case of an acceptable break from reality,...
With that in mind, one can potentially justify anything by saying "it's not supposed to be a true-to-life representation". And that's . . . honestly, that's bearable.
But my sticking point, and I think yours as well, is that the better stories have real people in real situations acting as they would really act, regardless of the scenery. Fantasy is only fantasy because in reality there is no magic, there are no elves, we no longer fight with swords and lances and axes and maces and so on. Science fiction is science fiction because we have not colonised or made contact with worlds around the galaxy, we cannot travel faster than light, there are no ray guns.
But the people are real. The evil king of the Sandwaste could be the evil emperor of Titan VII could be the evil dictator of the Third Reich (Adolf Hitler). The cheeky sword-brandishing mercenary aiding the fledgling hero could be the cheeky gunslinging mercenary aiding the Jedi newbie could be the cheeky veteran marine aiding the upstart private.
So (and I think we're on the same page here) the deciding factor for me is Are The People Real. If every social interaction sequence feels like so much deliberate contrived bullshit designed to make the reader coo or squeal or fawn or otherwise falsely empathise with the character(s), then I can no longer tolerate it.
Indi
Dr. Mama Cat. (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/13/09 | Reply
@Ace:
I meant to reply to this earlier but got side tracked by other stuff.
As per the convenient amnesia with an alter-ego taking over thing, I always figured it was justified in that when the other personality/entity is in control of the body, they can force the original into submission, thereby preventing it from witnessing the incident at all. Of course, that doesn't go very far into explaining how the original personality can coexist with the other without forcing it to submit in turn, but I figure it's kind of a case of an acceptable break from reality, as long as the story itself is decent.
Ace. No. Just no. You already touched on it with the bit on how it fails to explain the coexistence factor. You're not going to see something like that without some serious psychological issues, in addition to whatever hang ups would be necessary for such coexistence to even happen, theoretically that is.
It's an over played card that unfortunately needs some form of either magic or severe PTSD to justify it; and even that would be stretching if it's not done correctly. It's just an ever so convenient means to justify part of the story.
I've seen a few decent stories that used a form of it. But that was dealing with two seperate souls inhabiting the same body, which made it less of an excuse. And even then, the author still played the card of one being totally dominate over the other and set very strict boundaries as to how it could even happen in the first place.
~Crystia
Selene Shri
Grand Otaku | Posted 08/11/09 | Reply
@Allamorph:
Oh, okay. I guess I am worried that I'll have a hard time keeping things straight. oO I'll get some books at the library when we go again.
~Sarah
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/11/09 | Reply
@Selene Shri:
No, I knew what you meant. But I still have several long series going at the same time myself. If you're worried about it being hard to keep track of, it isn't.
And also, the Sherlock Holmes stories are by no means a series. It's a collection of short stories, and three separate novels.
Again, I understand your concern about this. But I still advise you go get out and read.
Like I told you before, it's like following multiple television shows at the same time. You don't forget what happens in one show just because you watched four others, right? And you don't forget what happened in those other four just because you watched the one, right? Same concept.
Selene Shri
Grand Otaku | Posted 08/11/09 | Reply
@Allamorph:
Be a broad reader; the books won't go anywhere.
oO I think I explained that wrong. I do read other stuff too. I just don't want to start another long series until I finish Holmes. I've read some single books and stuff online. Like your story and that rp Shinigami Dance. Oo
~Sarah
Aaryanna
Otaku Legend | Posted 08/06/09 | Reply
@Allamorph:
And good grief, girl. You've read some of my stuff, and Goodkind doesn't get any more graphic than that. He just . . . does it for longer periods of time. At times.
O rly? *stares at you* I'll keep that in mind then.
~*Aaryanna*~
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/05/09 | Reply
@Aaryanna:
For example, the main character can just automatically read the language of some magical book because he's the 'seeker'.
No, he can automatically read the language of some magical book because his father made him memorise from cover to cover another magical book that he didn't actually know was magical at all. But yeah, the television show sucked.
And good grief, girl. You've read some of my stuff, and Goodkind doesn't get any more graphic than that. He just . . . does it for longer periods of time. At times.
Aaryanna
Otaku Legend | Posted 08/05/09 | Reply
That cartoon is great. XD
I agree with the rant. I love it when an author takes the time to build the story so things fit and are actually believable. It feels like a joke when they don't.
I didn't read The Sword of Truth series because I hear that it gets graphic. So I watched the mini-series instead. Indi tells me that they butchered it, but it's LOADED with lots of cheap moments like your talking about.
For example, the main character can just automatically read the language of some magical book because he's the 'seeker'... That had me wanting to just gag. I stopped watching it cause I got tired of them pulling crap like that.
~*Aaryanna*~
Rachmaninoff
Otaku Legend | Posted 08/04/09 | Reply
It gets old to see shows or books use cheap tactics like that. I really hate enjoying something only to later realize that the author totally pulled a lame stunt like the instant magic skill or music, etc.
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
@Selene Shri:
The great thing about Sherlock Holmes is that the stories are individual, and rarely need prior knowledge to understand. Sure, it's great to read them all the way through nonstop, but I also like to use such things as a break between other books of different series.
Also, although I make a concerted effort to read any series I pick up in published order, I often stop reading it at some point to shift to another series, and then get back into it at a later time. It makes the experience more enjoyable, in my opinion, to allow myself to spend time in multiple universes instead of gorging myself on one author.
It's like eating. I love pizza. But pizza at every meal would get really boring after a while. (Not to mention unhealthy.) Be a broad reader; the books won't go anywhere.
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
@Nehszriah:
All complaints about the actor aside, the character itself was what I was remarking on, and I was presenting it as a basic example of how to actually do the Magical Skill thing right.
One other way, I think, you could write in the sudden virtuosity would be shifting previously learned skills to a new field of talent.
I believe this is true, to an extent. However, to my mind the only manner in which baseball would translate to swords is if the character was wielding a claymore. Certainly a person's life prior to the story can better equip them for the new skills they must learn, but again I would call that at least some form of prior training. Again, as long as Ichigo Kurosaki was in a situation where he could use his raw strength to win a fight, he won. Any opponent who was capable of skills and techniques bred from arduous training generally beat the snot out of him, and he was forced to sit and take damage until, say, Byakuya Kuchiki decided to allow the battle to be determined by a single blow with the user's entire strength behind it, and Ichigo only "won" that one on a technicality.
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
@Ace:
You will never use the word "trope" again when I am discussing serious topics.
However, the ability of the alter ego to totally suppress the original consciousness (or in certain cases the surrogate consciousness, when the alter ego is the original character) is just a clever way to say "oh, he can't remember anything because he can't remember anything". It's a circular logic scenario, and circular logic is always assumed to be false. I do understand where you're coming from, but when you look straight at the concept all of the situational details fall away and you get left with a concept being used to explain itself.
Nehszriah
Hits Self With Axe (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
I too have to agree on the magical powers/abilities cop-out being oftentimes simply retarded. It is one thing if you trained all of your life to do something impossibly difficult for normal folk, but to master this stuff in a week's time? Highly unlikely.
One other way, I think, you could write in the sudden virtuosity would be shifting previously learned skills to a new field of talent. In Katekyo Hitman Reborn, one of the main characters becomes crazy-awesome at handling swords. The kid was also playing baseball fanatically from an early age, however, automatically giving him some of the wrist strength, arm movements and footwork needed for swordplay. He transposes his baseball skills by basically replacing his bat with a sword (stance and everything in one situation), but he still looks like a total Marty Stu dork in comparison to one of his friends who became a skilled Mafia man on intellect and hard work alone... starting at the age of six. (It really gets silly when the swordsman character decides he's going to wield a katana in one hand and three shorter swords in his other hand. It looks really cool, but after it sinks in, you got to go "WTF are you smoking, Ms Author?")
Pretty much a similar thing could be said about kids who would have worked their tails off doing laborious chores suddenly having the potential to be stronger, faster and have more stamina than their average peers. A real-life example would be how kids from my school district, which encompasses a residential city/not-quite the stereotypical suburb seen on television, really do not like playing football against kids from the northern part of the county. Many of those kids live or work on farms and have been doing all sorts of body-building activities since they were able to pick up a pail and carry it across the yard. Of course, not all the kids do that, but most of them who do get saddled with being linebackers because they're so damn huge.
...and really, the best thing Will Turner had going for him in any of the movies was that he was delicious-looking piece of man-meat. Any sort of argument about the pettiness of it all aside, the fact that Orlando Bloom and Johnny Depp brought in the fan girls was part of the reason they were so confident about making two sequels. The only difference so far, from what I can tell, is that at least Sparrow/Depp can act. Turner/Bloom, on the other hand... it's pretty usual for those of the female persuasion to turn off their minds when he's on screen. While I don't mind a good-looking man in a movie, he should at least be able to act during it.
Be true, be you and of course, be otaku.
Ace
Senile Hipster (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
As per the convenient amnesia with an alter-ego taking over thing, I always figured it was justified in that when the other personality/entity is in control of the body, they can force the original into submission, thereby preventing it from witnessing the incident at all. Of course, that doesn't go very far into explaining how the original personality can coexist with the other without forcing it to submit in turn, but I figure it's kind of a case of an acceptable break from reality, as long as the story itself is decent. I thought it was done pretty well in the Batman Beyond movie.
But yeah, the instant superpowers just add water thing is pretty dumb. I can understand in the case of X-Men and other such series where it's a common occurrence that's stated to happen once a certain requirement (such as age) is met, but it tends to get overused for exclusive purposes and it's one of the leading causes of Mary Sue, which is a horrible disease that must be cured.
It really all depends on execution, but some tropes are just harder to successfully pull off without making people hate you. You'd be hard pressed to find a character that ended up being flanderized as successfully as Eric Matthews from Boy Meets World, but deadpan snarkers are generally considered a good thing (not that there aren't exceptions.)
And yeah, Will Turner was a pretty awful pirate for a guy who was being hyped as one of the most promising candidates to become one in the first movie, up until the whole being Davy Jones thing. His motivations seemed way off. Elizabeth seemed to end up being the most pirate-y of the main three characters, I thought.
Last edited by Ace at 6:27:57 PM EDT on August 3, 2009.
Selene Shri
Grand Otaku | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
@Allamorph:
I think you mentioned that series before since it's on my list of stuff to check out. oO I want to finish Holmes before I start a new series.
~Sarah
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
@Selene Shri:
Getting good grades without studying or paying attention in class is impossible. You either have to do one or the other, and often you must do both. (Although I found the comic after I'd been mulling over this for a while, so that was purely incidental. I have no idea what Meyer did in the last book. All I know is that a lot of what she did in the first book was very very convenient and generic and vague.)
If you read enough good literature, you'll start to be able to distinguish the less-good literature more easily.
Also if you haven't already been recommended this, I suggest you get into Anne McCaffrey's The Dragonriders of Pern series, for a change of pace. I think it'll do you good.
Allamorph
Spiritus Memorae (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
@:
I actually do use the "it's magic" card to explain the shapeshifting factor of my own work. It just happened to be a very specific sort of magic in a specific situation.
And there's still a lot of physiological and psychological factors that I had to take into account. But that part was fun, and not all that negative as it turned out. It also turned out to be less of an ability and more of a personality.
And no one ever needs physics in fantasy. *shot*
Selene Shri
Grand Otaku | Posted 08/03/09 | Reply
oO I guess it is cheap when authors do that. Though that means I have to look at the last book in Twilight and see what the author did with Bella, as cheap. =_= Is this what growing up is all about? Realizing that something you thought was really good, really isn't?
*wanders off and bangs her head on her desk*
~Sarah