I think the bottom line - especially online where we are dealing with text only - is that people can only make judgements based on the words you use.
So if you do initially describe a complex thing in a simplistic, flippant way, then you must expect people to react to that and only that. After all, none of us are mind readers - we can't be expected to see some kind of deeper thought process one is not apparent.
You may talk of considering an issue from many angles, but the question is whether you demonstrate that or not. If you don't, then people aren't going to make an assumption - in other words, it has to be evident in what you say.
I think you are a very intelligent person, but my feeling is that you sometimes miss the issue because you are fluttering around the periphery.
I'm not sure what a good analogy for that would be. I kind of imagine a patient who has had a stroke going to a doctor and that doctor being absolutely thorough in checking them for every disease other than stroke. Yes, that doctor is thorough, but they have largely missed the core point/issue.
I'm not sure what can be said about it beyond that, because I don't think you can change your nature (in the same way that I can't). I guess all you can do is attempt to actually see things from different perspectives and try to ensure that you understand the point you are arguing against (i.e. not in an intellectual sense, but in terms of understanding the position of other people in a more accurate way).
In any case, I suppose practice makes perfect. The good thing about OB (and this entire community) is that we can engage in all kinds of discussions and debates without it becoming some huge issue.
I certainly hope it stays that way.
Edit: One thing I forgot to add, in response to this quote:
"When I make a statement about what something is, I am doing nothing more and nothing less than making a statement about what that something is. I present no context, no judgments, no outside considerations of my own. I do this because once I see something objectively, I can better comprehend it subjectively, and I can do so from various viewpoints aside from my own."
You may think you are making a statement that is nothing more or less than what something is, but this misunderstands your use of English. Even these simple terms often carry inherent implications within their very meaning.
So although you may know what you are talking about, you must wholly understand the terms you're using - otherwise you can not be surprised when you are misinterpreted by others.
For example, my grandfather used to use the "N word" to describe black people occasionally. In reality he used this word because he was ignorant and grew up in a time when it was acceptable. Ironically he had many black friends, whom he'd known for years.
But what if he said "Oh I was watching a cricket game and the n****** won"? If you don't know him, you would interpret that word's common meaning and you'd derive natural implications from it (i.e. that he is a racist).
Same thing happens with other words too. So you may think you're making a simple logical statement, but you are actually choosing words that imply something other than your intention. We must all exercise caution with this.
You are also mistaking "objective" and "subjective".
Your statement in the first place (in reference to the suicide thread I presume) was subjective rather than objective. You gave us your opinion on the subject, rather than giving us an objective truth.
I think the sentiment of your post is something I agree with, it's just that you haven't actually applied aspects of that sentiment to your own comments in the past.
Last edited by James at 3:12:19 AM EDT on May 25, 2009.
Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
I've been so busy with school that I feel like I'm out of the loop. o_O I can't recall if I've ever misunderstood you or thought you were oversimplifying things. I certainly hope not. ._.
Being simple and to the point is what I prefer, but I can certainly see how that could be misunderstood by others. So long as you know that you are taking the time to be through, then I wouldn't worry too much about it.
You know, some of us are a little dense at times. It's not intentional though. At least you know some of us have worked on not being so quick to assume you don't consider everything carefully.
Simple is good, even if a lot of people don't grasp that, or in the case of certain people in the thread... simply can't see what you are saying.
When it comes to bluntness, sometimes you just gotta be. If one isn't blunt, there are situations in which the person being addressed doesn't get it. It can also be very satisfying.
Twisted, for instance, is very blunt with me on a regular basis regarding my intelligence (or lack thereof).
oO It sounds like Sherlock Holmes and Watson. People are lost cause they don't see what you see. You've stated your conclusion and they don't see how you came to it. Something like that right? ^^
Sounds like some people just don't know you yet. I've run into the same problem when I first met you. Though I wonder if this is a case of someone choosing to find fault with the simple explanation instead of a case of not knowing you yet.
It’s kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If you lay out all of the reasoning, you risk losing the reader/audience and yet making things concise, can result in the meaning or means to get to it being lost or misunderstood.
Either way, like Crystia said, I wouldn’t let it bug you.
It's a tough subject. And I really think that much of this depends on one's various personal definitions of many of the words you used here. What one may consider to be a simple matter, another may consider it to not be, as they may believe that that may be further broken down into further simpler pieces, and therefore they may consider that upper part to be much more "not simple" than another does. Complications between the two parties may then ensue.
Much of your argument does makes sense to a certain degree to me, however (at least the way I am interpreting what you are saying), I see you as saying that you delve into something, understand the reasons behind it all, and then proceed to make a simplified statement based on what you have analyzed. This does make sense, however you cannot expect others to immediately realize that you have done deep thinking into the matter, and are not just making that simplified statement without any of that thinking. If you want to make a simple statement, then you need to have the proof to back it up. Heck, if you want to say anything, you need the proof to back it up.
Once again, I say that it depends on your definitions of terms like "simple". If you say that a root concept is considered a "simple" concept, many would disagree, as they would see the base as "not simple", due to the thinking that had to go in to arrive at that conclusion, and not just thinking about the conclusion itself without any context. It's all in the interpretations of each person after all.
It's quite possible that I am completely misinterpreting this whole discussion myself, lol. It seems like you had some specific things in mind while writing this, so I may be thinking of things related but still in a different way.
Whatever the case, oversimplifying is an interesting subject, something that I not too long ago had been pondering over in terms of one of my new ways to interpret reality and form opinions.
Dr. Mama Cat. (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 04/26/09 | Reply
In the past year I have been confronted with the same term multiple times in reference to several of my expressed positions and—well, any time I speak seriously. And it's begun to gnaw at me a tad.
I'm going to assume part of what brings this on is a certain thread over at OB. If I am making the correct assessment as to where this is coming from, then I think I'm safe in saying that not everyone is that complete in their analysis of a situation.
Or rather they only see what you've presented and don't look further. They assume that you have not done more than make a snap judgment. It's often easier to do that and though it might seem shallow to not give things due consideration, I think it's pretty common for people to do so. And therefore, they assume that you are doing the same.
So simple is excellent, but it will always run the risk of being misunderstood. I wouldn't let it gnaw at you. *pats you on the back*
James
Team | Posted 05/08/09 | Reply
I think the bottom line - especially online where we are dealing with text only - is that people can only make judgements based on the words you use.
So if you do initially describe a complex thing in a simplistic, flippant way, then you must expect people to react to that and only that. After all, none of us are mind readers - we can't be expected to see some kind of deeper thought process one is not apparent.
You may talk of considering an issue from many angles, but the question is whether you demonstrate that or not. If you don't, then people aren't going to make an assumption - in other words, it has to be evident in what you say.
I think you are a very intelligent person, but my feeling is that you sometimes miss the issue because you are fluttering around the periphery.
I'm not sure what a good analogy for that would be. I kind of imagine a patient who has had a stroke going to a doctor and that doctor being absolutely thorough in checking them for every disease other than stroke. Yes, that doctor is thorough, but they have largely missed the core point/issue.
I'm not sure what can be said about it beyond that, because I don't think you can change your nature (in the same way that I can't). I guess all you can do is attempt to actually see things from different perspectives and try to ensure that you understand the point you are arguing against (i.e. not in an intellectual sense, but in terms of understanding the position of other people in a more accurate way).
In any case, I suppose practice makes perfect. The good thing about OB (and this entire community) is that we can engage in all kinds of discussions and debates without it becoming some huge issue.
I certainly hope it stays that way.![](http://www.theotaku.com/global/images/icons/neko-blink.gif)
Edit: One thing I forgot to add, in response to this quote:
"When I make a statement about what something is, I am doing nothing more and nothing less than making a statement about what that something is. I present no context, no judgments, no outside considerations of my own. I do this because once I see something objectively, I can better comprehend it subjectively, and I can do so from various viewpoints aside from my own."
You may think you are making a statement that is nothing more or less than what something is, but this misunderstands your use of English. Even these simple terms often carry inherent implications within their very meaning.
So although you may know what you are talking about, you must wholly understand the terms you're using - otherwise you can not be surprised when you are misinterpreted by others.
For example, my grandfather used to use the "N word" to describe black people occasionally. In reality he used this word because he was ignorant and grew up in a time when it was acceptable. Ironically he had many black friends, whom he'd known for years.
But what if he said "Oh I was watching a cricket game and the n****** won"? If you don't know him, you would interpret that word's common meaning and you'd derive natural implications from it (i.e. that he is a racist).
Same thing happens with other words too. So you may think you're making a simple logical statement, but you are actually choosing words that imply something other than your intention. We must all exercise caution with this.
You are also mistaking "objective" and "subjective".
Your statement in the first place (in reference to the suicide thread I presume) was subjective rather than objective. You gave us your opinion on the subject, rather than giving us an objective truth.
I think the sentiment of your post is something I agree with, it's just that you haven't actually applied aspects of that sentiment to your own comments in the past.
Last edited by James at 3:12:19 AM EDT on May 25, 2009.
Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
Sabrina
Otaku Archangel | Posted 05/03/09 | Reply
I've been so busy with school that I feel like I'm out of the loop. o_O I can't recall if I've ever misunderstood you or thought you were oversimplifying things. I certainly hope not. ._.
Being simple and to the point is what I prefer, but I can certainly see how that could be misunderstood by others. So long as you know that you are taking the time to be through, then I wouldn't worry too much about it.
-Sabrina
Rachmaninoff
Otaku Legend | Posted 04/29/09 | Reply
You know, some of us are a little dense at times. It's not intentional though. At least you know some of us have worked on not being so quick to assume you don't consider everything carefully.
Simple is good, even if a lot of people don't grasp that, or in the case of certain people in the thread... simply can't see what you are saying.
ShikamaruRocks
Otaku Legend | Posted 04/28/09 | Reply
When it comes to bluntness, sometimes you just gotta be. If one isn't blunt, there are situations in which the person being addressed doesn't get it. It can also be very satisfying.
Twisted, for instance, is very blunt with me on a regular basis regarding my intelligence (or lack thereof).
Selene Shri
Grand Otaku | Posted 04/28/09 | Reply
oO It sounds like Sherlock Holmes and Watson. People are lost cause they don't see what you see. You've stated your conclusion and they don't see how you came to it. Something like that right? ^^
~Sarah
Nathan
Good Old Reliable | Posted 04/26/09 | Reply
Sounds like some people just don't know you yet. I've run into the same problem when I first met you. Though I wonder if this is a case of someone choosing to find fault with the simple explanation instead of a case of not knowing you yet.
It’s kind of a damned if you do and damned if you don’t. If you lay out all of the reasoning, you risk losing the reader/audience and yet making things concise, can result in the meaning or means to get to it being lost or misunderstood.
Either way, like Crystia said, I wouldn’t let it bug you.
Kastom
Otaku Princess | Posted 04/26/09 | Reply
It's a tough subject. And I really think that much of this depends on one's various personal definitions of many of the words you used here. What one may consider to be a simple matter, another may consider it to not be, as they may believe that that may be further broken down into further simpler pieces, and therefore they may consider that upper part to be much more "not simple" than another does. Complications between the two parties may then ensue.
Much of your argument does makes sense to a certain degree to me, however (at least the way I am interpreting what you are saying), I see you as saying that you delve into something, understand the reasons behind it all, and then proceed to make a simplified statement based on what you have analyzed. This does make sense, however you cannot expect others to immediately realize that you have done deep thinking into the matter, and are not just making that simplified statement without any of that thinking. If you want to make a simple statement, then you need to have the proof to back it up. Heck, if you want to say anything, you need the proof to back it up.
Once again, I say that it depends on your definitions of terms like "simple". If you say that a root concept is considered a "simple" concept, many would disagree, as they would see the base as "not simple", due to the thinking that had to go in to arrive at that conclusion, and not just thinking about the conclusion itself without any context. It's all in the interpretations of each person after all.
It's quite possible that I am completely misinterpreting this whole discussion myself, lol. It seems like you had some specific things in mind while writing this, so I may be thinking of things related but still in a different way.
Whatever the case, oversimplifying is an interesting subject, something that I not too long ago had been pondering over in terms of one of my new ways to interpret reality and form opinions.
I'd rather see in shades of gray.
TwistedCyberChick
Grand Otaku | Posted 04/26/09 | Reply
Maybe I should hang around OB more often. These discussions seem intriguing.
Miss Anonymous: ARE YOU CALLING THE PLIGHT OF PIZZA EVERYWHERE STUPID?!?!? >:O
Indi
Dr. Mama Cat. (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 04/26/09 | Reply
In the past year I have been confronted with the same term multiple times in reference to several of my expressed positions and—well, any time I speak seriously. And it's begun to gnaw at me a tad.
I'm going to assume part of what brings this on is a certain thread over at OB. If I am making the correct assessment as to where this is coming from, then I think I'm safe in saying that not everyone is that complete in their analysis of a situation.
Or rather they only see what you've presented and don't look further. They assume that you have not done more than make a snap judgment. It's often easier to do that and though it might seem shallow to not give things due consideration, I think it's pretty common for people to do so. And therefore, they assume that you are doing the same.
So simple is excellent, but it will always run the risk of being misunderstood. I wouldn't let it gnaw at you. *pats you on the back*
~Crystia
Miss Anonymous
Vagrant AI (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 04/26/09 | Reply
Plus, aren't writers told to not get all flowery with their language and keep things simple? Because that's what people understand best is simple.
So to try to break down something and see the simplicity in it, I don't see anything wrong with that.