I do agree with some of what you say. Unfortunately, as a primary dub consumer, I have the little problem of sight. You might remember my comment about being legally blind back on the AP forums when I mentioned being a photographer in Japan. I can barely read subs, and the same goes with my blind/LB/VI friends who have little choice but to watch/listen to the dub. Sure, I understand Japanese, but since the only show I ever watch where English is the native language is Doctor Who, I like to sit down sometimes and watch my television in English without having to stop and think about which hashi the speakers are talking about.
It's hard to cater to such a diverse audience, and while online distribution can help, many companies will still want to make a dub track.
Sam & Max Ep 305-Sam: One recipie to rule them all and one egg to bind it!
>.> Jeez, I'm afraid to comment. Everyone has something to say.
T_T
From time to time I expect most animes to be dubbed, but by now I should be comfortable with subs since I really have no choice when watching meh Korean Dramas XD
It all just has to do with laziness. I can eat and doodle and listen to the show all at the same time if it's dubbed, but I have to do only one or the other if it's subbed. Half the time I prefer subs because somehow the original is a bit funnier. Like in The Wallflower. I saw they had dubbed it, but didn't bother really watching it.
Sometimes it's because I'm afraid of what I'll hear also. Some dubbed animes that would be good are hard for me to watch because the dubbing sucks. What I hate the most is when there is an episode of a dubbed anime where the syncing is out of place. It's hard to follow and is irritating (MAR and Ergo Proxy are a few to name).
In short, I'll watch subs, but dubs give me happiness too. As long as the anime and voice actors are good, I'm happy. ^^
The difference between animation and movies is that... it's movies. Dubbing over movie dialogue is awkward in practice and onscreen. Animation (of any kind) sometimes benefits from dubbing, and there HAVE been foreign animated films (and not even anime ones) that are released dubbed. The Persepolis DVD even came with the choice of an English dubbed version or original subtitled French. And Disney, etc, sub many of the animated films they export (pop in any animated movie DVD from the last 3 or 4 years and there will probably be French/Spanish audio options in the menu. It's actually fun to watch them in a different language with English subs sometimes). While the rest of your points may have made sense, the one about subbed foreign films was a poor argument. Apples to oranges.
I actually don't think it's unreasonable to offer both subs and dubs on the one package.
Having considered the different comments I've seen here, I think it's worth making one important point: as you said, some of the market is interested in dubs and some is interested in subs.
So, I guess I'd ask, what is your solution for the distributors?
It seems to me that you're suggesting companies release two versions of the same package, with one excluding the dubs (thus making the "lite" version cheaper).
I don't necessarily think that such an approach would lower the prices across the board though. In fact, it could easily increase the price at the retail end.
Although I agree that many producers release multiple versions of a single product, eoschild does have a legitimate point: distributors are all fighting for retail space and that has to be a consideration for them.
At the end of the day, as long as a DVD contains the option to switch off the dub track, I don't see too much of an issue. It depends how much the dubbing actually costs - I would tend to doubt that dubbing pushes retail prices up very far, because the distributor would do one dub and then they'd be selling in high volume. In other words, it would be an economy of scale issue, which shouldn't increase prices exponentially.
I don't know what anime DVD prices are in the US as compared to their equivalents in other countries, but I would question whether or not dubbing in and of itself is solely responsible for any price differences. It may be a factor, but I'd say there are other legitimate factors too.
I suppose we all hate feeling that we're being gouged by a particular distributor, which is a valid point. On the other hand, you can ask how long is a piece of string - in other words, distributors are reasonably allowed to make a slight margin and I would be interested to know what the margin is. If it's exhorbitant, then fine, but if not... well, bad luck really. If they didn't exist at all, it would be even tougher for the majority of people to consume anime in the United States.
Ultimately digital distribution would be best. It could be platform independent, but probably not software independent (at least, not completely). Still, if you could choose which format you want to buy (or buy a license and be able to download all formats or something), that would be a wonderful option.
As it is, I'm still waiting for the movie store to hit iTunes here in Australia. We still don't have movies, TV shows or rentals. Only video podcasts. Sucks to be us.
- James
Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
Very nice essay, very well written. Good job. Although I respect that anime came from Japan, and it's creators probably wanted it to be presented in it's original format. I have found that I like some of the dubs just as well as the original form. I think it's really thoughtful when some companies send out anime that has the English dub as well as the original Japanese format.
Anyway, great podcast, great essay!
~just a Mad Hatter hopping by~
We hope, but the big question is if they will be locked down to specific software/hardware. My hope is that they will realize the futility of such measures and don't do it.
I was referring to Bandai Visual. Their prices may be high, but they are doing good business, because they are serving the market need. And Media Blasters might have done sub-only in the past, but if you look at their current lineup, all the big titles like AMG are dual language releases.
As far as the problems in releasing two versions, companies already release multiple versions of the same shows all the time, so that argument doesn't hold too much water. Companies release multiple versions all the time hoping that one will sell better. Additionally, I don't care. I'm a consumer, I don't care what hoops a company has to jump through or what trials and tribulations they go through. Either they meet my need or I take my money elsewhere.
Also note, my ideal preference was a digital version that was platform and software independent.
A few corrections, Bandai Entertainment offers dubs while Bandai Visual USA omits them (but suffers from inflated prices and low episode counts in an attempt to emulate the Japanese releases). The company that almost consistantly releases DVD's sans a dub are Media Blasters, minus their big name titles.
While the companies should explore other distribution methods for getting the product to consumers, it would actually be more of a problem to release hybrid and sub-only DVD's of the same series, retailer shelve space is limited. Products like cars and stereos allow for customization, DVD's generally do not. Digital distribution is better suited for this.
I didn't say that current releases don't have the original audio with subs as well as dubs. My whole point is that the industries approach has been to offer both, which drives the price up due to the ADR work. I don't want to pay more to buy a product, some of which I will never use. My experience is that most people watch either subs or dubs, and some people watch both from time to time. But if the industry's not meeting my need as a consumer I will not consume from that industry.
I will absolutely be buying Bandai's 9 episodes on a disc for $30 release of Gurren Lagaan. I'm hoping they'll be selling them at AX so I can pick the first one up before I go to Japan, and then have Batou send me the other two. Because, as my article said, I'm a consumer who will pay for the product that meets my need at the right price :-)
well, in all due respect, i agree with most of your article, except that alot of anime industries are starting to put the original japanese voices as well as the dub. dvds from a ways back such as yu yu hakusho even have the original voices. azumanga daioh, cardcaptors, full metal alchemist, all the studio ghibli films, and so many more! (unless you're buying a VHS). so while they might not advertised that way, more than likely they do have the option to watch the japanese version with subtitles. and my argument is not that i dislike watching subs, that's never been a problem with me. i enjoy watching studio ghibli films especially in japanese, BUT, i don't believe that they are considerably better or if at all than the dubs (with the exception of some, because like with all things, they're are bad dubs). as for addressing the market, i've found that many of the older fans enjoy watching both versions, so the way the dvds are selling now can satisfy most of the general market. which is more than likely why they don't cater to the 10 percent that just want subbed versions that you can easily access on the internet.
Personally, I enjoy both subs and dubs. Sometimes, I even think that the English dubs are better than the original Japanese (Of course, that's just my opinion).
The problem is that the market is so varied with the different wants and needs, it's hard to find compromises.
I really can't argue with very much, if any, of this. The furthest I could really go would be that in terms of paying less for less content, there's gotta be some midway hiccup from Japanese companies that are selling their 3-episode, single-audio bare-bone DVDs for pretty much the same price as a North American 5-episode dual-audio + features disc. It's very possible there's something in there I don't have in my head right now, but that's just the feeling I get, is that money/licensing issues would come into that. Speed/time getting the stuff to market would definitely be better, though, no doubt.
Other than that, the only other thing I can say is that the companies are starting to change. FUNimation's done a buttload of negotiations in the east about how western audiences work, Bandai Entertainment's got that crazy double-release experiment planned for Gurren Lagann . . . heh, so here's the new question, then: if Bandai Entertainment does do this thing where they cater to the audience that just wants a lot of sub-only anime for a fair price, will the audiences buy it? 'Cause all these years they've been saying they will . . . but y'know . . .
In any case, thanks for being intelligent and rational about this and for approaching the tried-and-true anti-purchase excuses from a nice and stable position.
divisionten
Otakuite++ | Posted 11/10/08 | Reply
Ichigo:
I do agree with some of what you say. Unfortunately, as a primary dub consumer, I have the little problem of sight. You might remember my comment about being legally blind back on the AP forums when I mentioned being a photographer in Japan. I can barely read subs, and the same goes with my blind/LB/VI friends who have little choice but to watch/listen to the dub. Sure, I understand Japanese, but since the only show I ever watch where English is the native language is Doctor Who, I like to sit down sometimes and watch my television in English without having to stop and think about which hashi the speakers are talking about.
It's hard to cater to such a diverse audience, and while online distribution can help, many companies will still want to make a dub track.
Sam & Max Ep 305-Sam: One recipie to rule them all and one egg to bind it!
Animatious
Otaku Eternal | Posted 07/27/08 | Reply
>.> Jeez, I'm afraid to comment. Everyone has something to say.
T_T
From time to time I expect most animes to be dubbed, but by now I should be comfortable with subs since I really have no choice when watching meh Korean Dramas XD
It all just has to do with laziness. I can eat and doodle and listen to the show all at the same time if it's dubbed, but I have to do only one or the other if it's subbed. Half the time I prefer subs because somehow the original is a bit funnier. Like in The Wallflower. I saw they had dubbed it, but didn't bother really watching it.
Sometimes it's because I'm afraid of what I'll hear also. Some dubbed animes that would be good are hard for me to watch because the dubbing sucks. What I hate the most is when there is an episode of a dubbed anime where the syncing is out of place. It's hard to follow and is irritating (MAR and Ergo Proxy are a few to name).
In short, I'll watch subs, but dubs give me happiness too. As long as the anime and voice actors are good, I'm happy. ^^
R A W R~ 내 사랑. . .
nekusagi
Senior Otaku | Posted 07/08/08 | Reply
The difference between animation and movies is that... it's movies. Dubbing over movie dialogue is awkward in practice and onscreen. Animation (of any kind) sometimes benefits from dubbing, and there HAVE been foreign animated films (and not even anime ones) that are released dubbed. The Persepolis DVD even came with the choice of an English dubbed version or original subtitled French. And Disney, etc, sub many of the animated films they export (pop in any animated movie DVD from the last 3 or 4 years and there will probably be French/Spanish audio options in the menu. It's actually fun to watch them in a different language with English subs sometimes). While the rest of your points may have made sense, the one about subbed foreign films was a poor argument. Apples to oranges.
gaararox098
Senior Otaku | Posted 06/22/08 | Reply
i reeeally hope u dont want me to read aaaaallll of that! im to lazy but i will subscribe!
James
Team | Posted 05/14/08 | Reply
I actually don't think it's unreasonable to offer both subs and dubs on the one package.
Having considered the different comments I've seen here, I think it's worth making one important point: as you said, some of the market is interested in dubs and some is interested in subs.
So, I guess I'd ask, what is your solution for the distributors?
It seems to me that you're suggesting companies release two versions of the same package, with one excluding the dubs (thus making the "lite" version cheaper).
I don't necessarily think that such an approach would lower the prices across the board though. In fact, it could easily increase the price at the retail end.
Although I agree that many producers release multiple versions of a single product, eoschild does have a legitimate point: distributors are all fighting for retail space and that has to be a consideration for them.
At the end of the day, as long as a DVD contains the option to switch off the dub track, I don't see too much of an issue. It depends how much the dubbing actually costs - I would tend to doubt that dubbing pushes retail prices up very far, because the distributor would do one dub and then they'd be selling in high volume. In other words, it would be an economy of scale issue, which shouldn't increase prices exponentially.
I don't know what anime DVD prices are in the US as compared to their equivalents in other countries, but I would question whether or not dubbing in and of itself is solely responsible for any price differences. It may be a factor, but I'd say there are other legitimate factors too.
I suppose we all hate feeling that we're being gouged by a particular distributor, which is a valid point. On the other hand, you can ask how long is a piece of string - in other words, distributors are reasonably allowed to make a slight margin and I would be interested to know what the margin is. If it's exhorbitant, then fine, but if not... well, bad luck really. If they didn't exist at all, it would be even tougher for the majority of people to consume anime in the United States.
Ultimately digital distribution would be best. It could be platform independent, but probably not software independent (at least, not completely). Still, if you could choose which format you want to buy (or buy a license and be able to download all formats or something), that would be a wonderful option.
As it is, I'm still waiting for the movie store to hit iTunes here in Australia. We still don't have movies, TV shows or rentals. Only video podcasts. Sucks to be us.
- James
Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss
Mad Hatter Belia
Grand Otaku | Posted 05/14/08 | Reply
Very nice essay, very well written. Good job. Although I respect that anime came from Japan, and it's creators probably wanted it to be presented in it's original format. I have found that I like some of the dubs just as well as the original form. I think it's really thoughtful when some companies send out anime that has the English dub as well as the original Japanese format.
Anyway, great podcast, great essay!
~just a Mad Hatter hopping by~
AP Ichigo
Japan Bureau (Podcasters) | Posted 05/11/08 | Reply
@SomeGuy:
We hope, but the big question is if they will be locked down to specific software/hardware. My hope is that they will realize the futility of such measures and don't do it.
-Ichigo
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 05/11/08 | Reply
@AP Ichigo:
Thankfully digital purchases should more or less be right around the corner too, eh?
AP Ichigo
Japan Bureau (Podcasters) | Posted 05/07/08 | Reply
@eoschild:
I was referring to Bandai Visual. Their prices may be high, but they are doing good business, because they are serving the market need. And Media Blasters might have done sub-only in the past, but if you look at their current lineup, all the big titles like AMG are dual language releases.
As far as the problems in releasing two versions, companies already release multiple versions of the same shows all the time, so that argument doesn't hold too much water. Companies release multiple versions all the time hoping that one will sell better. Additionally, I don't care. I'm a consumer, I don't care what hoops a company has to jump through or what trials and tribulations they go through. Either they meet my need or I take my money elsewhere.
Also note, my ideal preference was a digital version that was platform and software independent.
Thanks,
Ichigo
eoschild
Otakuite | Posted 05/07/08 | Reply
A few corrections, Bandai Entertainment offers dubs while Bandai Visual USA omits them (but suffers from inflated prices and low episode counts in an attempt to emulate the Japanese releases). The company that almost consistantly releases DVD's sans a dub are Media Blasters, minus their big name titles.
While the companies should explore other distribution methods for getting the product to consumers, it would actually be more of a problem to release hybrid and sub-only DVD's of the same series, retailer shelve space is limited. Products like cars and stereos allow for customization, DVD's generally do not. Digital distribution is better suited for this.
AP Ichigo
Japan Bureau (Podcasters) | Posted 05/03/08 | Reply
@haseo luver92:
I didn't say that current releases don't have the original audio with subs as well as dubs. My whole point is that the industries approach has been to offer both, which drives the price up due to the ADR work. I don't want to pay more to buy a product, some of which I will never use. My experience is that most people watch either subs or dubs, and some people watch both from time to time. But if the industry's not meeting my need as a consumer I will not consume from that industry.
-Ichigo
AP Ichigo
Japan Bureau (Podcasters) | Posted 05/03/08 | Reply
@SomeGuy:
I will absolutely be buying Bandai's 9 episodes on a disc for $30 release of Gurren Lagaan. I'm hoping they'll be selling them at AX so I can pick the first one up before I go to Japan, and then have Batou send me the other two. Because, as my article said, I'm a consumer who will pay for the product that meets my need at the right price :-)
Thanks,
Ichigo
haseo luver92
Otaku Legend | Posted 05/03/08 | Reply
well, in all due respect, i agree with most of your article, except that alot of anime industries are starting to put the original japanese voices as well as the dub. dvds from a ways back such as yu yu hakusho even have the original voices. azumanga daioh, cardcaptors, full metal alchemist, all the studio ghibli films, and so many more! (unless you're buying a VHS). so while they might not advertised that way, more than likely they do have the option to watch the japanese version with subtitles. and my argument is not that i dislike watching subs, that's never been a problem with me. i enjoy watching studio ghibli films especially in japanese, BUT, i don't believe that they are considerably better or if at all than the dubs (with the exception of some, because like with all things, they're are bad dubs). as for addressing the market, i've found that many of the older fans enjoy watching both versions, so the way the dvds are selling now can satisfy most of the general market. which is more than likely why they don't cater to the 10 percent that just want subbed versions that you can easily access on the internet.
haseo
animegamer057
Otakuite+ | Posted 05/03/08 | Reply
Hardball debates are fun!
Personally, I enjoy both subs and dubs. Sometimes, I even think that the English dubs are better than the original Japanese (Of course, that's just my opinion).
The problem is that the market is so varied with the different wants and needs, it's hard to find compromises.
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 05/02/08 | Reply
Hardball with Ichigo. Good times.
I really can't argue with very much, if any, of this. The furthest I could really go would be that in terms of paying less for less content, there's gotta be some midway hiccup from Japanese companies that are selling their 3-episode, single-audio bare-bone DVDs for pretty much the same price as a North American 5-episode dual-audio + features disc. It's very possible there's something in there I don't have in my head right now, but that's just the feeling I get, is that money/licensing issues would come into that. Speed/time getting the stuff to market would definitely be better, though, no doubt.
Other than that, the only other thing I can say is that the companies are starting to change. FUNimation's done a buttload of negotiations in the east about how western audiences work, Bandai Entertainment's got that crazy double-release experiment planned for Gurren Lagann . . . heh, so here's the new question, then: if Bandai Entertainment does do this thing where they cater to the audience that just wants a lot of sub-only anime for a fair price, will the audiences buy it? 'Cause all these years they've been saying they will . . . but y'know . . .
In any case, thanks for being intelligent and rational about this and for approaching the tried-and-true anti-purchase excuses from a nice and stable position.