LOL I loved reading that super long insightful comment!!!! :D Thanks, Snowy! And I wasn't offended, I actually didn't even write those cliches No way I'd spend my time writing all those cliches xD. BUT that being said, I was on the road to using some of those in a manga I'm planning for fun. xD
I haven't spoken to you for a while so here's an update: I've taken a whole new angle and decided to draw a one-shot about shoujo... A little break from my usual focus on shounen/sports manga ideas. I've still not officially started, the plot is coming along slowly, I've got some main characters planned out... But I admit, I was focused on using some of these cliches (such as the absence of parents and so forth).
I agree with you though!! It is interesting to dissect these ideas and find out where they stem from. Thats a thought that came to me when I posted it... why are these so popular and what do they mean? Thankyou for posting your opinion and perspective... Your points make complete sense! I think this list is comical, thats saying the least about it xD I can't believe so many of these devices have been used so many times, over and over. I admit, recently I've been reading lots of shoujo/romance manga and I do get caught up in them. I'm really picky with this type of manga though, and I'm currently reading ToraDora, Nana, Bakuman, Dengeki Daisy, and some others. Even though they are unique, I still catch those cliches =_=' They do sell and these cliches can be interesting, for the reasons you pointed out. But you've helped me see everything in a different light^^ And you're right! I was having trouble separating my ideas from these cliches and you've helped me feel more confident about starting anew^^
Thanks again for the awesome comment, my friend! And its great to hear from you again *hugs*
Lol I know eh? That would be awesome to read if you made one!! xD
I'm actually thinking of making a serious romance shoujo one-shot and I've already fallen into the trap of adding a couple cliches to it xD lol!
The Silent (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/05/12 | Reply
Whew, ok - yeah. This comment is a very rambly thing, where I'm mulling over some of my thoughts on all of this. I'm really not intending to offend - I'm trying to think through some of this stuff myself.
These cliches are just that - cliches! These are not plots - they are plot devices. A debased element of "plot." I'd say you walk a fine line between cliche and something universally appealing, but these here are straight up cliches! Not that that means you can't use them. But, be aware of what you're doing. Are you trying to make a manga by recipe, or are you trying to tell a compelling story? I think my favorite uses of these tropes / cliches appear in anime or manga that make fun of themselves for using them, or just aren't very serious at all (Yeah yeah, I like Ouran Host High School Club - for what it is, it's a lot of fun; I call it a "crack"-anime, it's total sugar content). I'm a picky customer, though, and I'm not reading manga anymore (partially because I feel like so many manga are just so flimsy and have no real substance!). But I suppose that gets back to the point - why are you doing this, what's the story you want to tell, and who is your audience?
Most of these things - it would take a cultural historian and a team of psychologists to deconstruct the reasons why these plot devices are so common and so, so very popular!
I'm neither of those things. But I have my own opinions on the matter! I mean, first of all - outside of Japan, the biggest audience for manga is teens & pre-teens. What sells for those audiences? Romantic / sexual tension. Boom, adolescence! Hormones. That kind of stuff is going to resonate strongly with the audience.
Yeah, crossdressing... that's a strange one. Well, the manga-verse is all high fantasy (reality isn't as fun! and really, the whole point is to explore some new boundaries, like in sci-fi!). And yes - crossdressing as a plot device allows for romantic tension. A lot of those plots also hinge on the couple ending up as roommates, and the tension that goes with that. Beyond that though - (all of this is extreme speculation!) what is the purpose? Some might argue that crossdressing plot lines allow artists/writers to get around the taboo of homosexuality. Oh no, they're not gay, it's fine! They're opposite genders. It seems a lot rarer that there's actually a representation of homosexuality in these stories. So who are these stories for? Is it a cheap way to sort of put in some homosexual content without really devoting to it? Or... something else? Then there's something that doesn't get much attention - how does this all relate to trans* issues, if it does at all? Transgender individuals don't get much attention in the broader media-verse, and when they do, it's often in terribly flat, cartoonish and offensive portrayals. If you're going to use crossdressing in your manga, make sure you consider these ideas. I'm not sure many people do.
That dovetails with the sibling love taboo... what's the point of plot devices like these? Are these manga really trying to explore the boundaries of social taboos? Or are they just cashing in on the audience's desires to see certain things? I'm not sure where the distinction is there, but it's a thing to think about.
About parents being absent - yeah, that's a big one not just in anime, but in other cartoons. How many cartoons have the parents as active characters? Most Disney movies also have absent parents (Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin... on and on), or (less commonly) the character loses a parent (who will forget the scene when Mufasa died in the Lion King??). Much of the time, when the parents are present, it's a salient plot point or part of the character; Mulan goes to war, and a big part of her character development involves being true to herself and honoring her family); it's obvious how important Nemo's parents are in Finding Nemo - it's integral to the story itself. So... absent parents or orphans... it's a way to generate sympathy for the main character, or the cartoon is simply not about the parents. I'm thinking about Azumanga Daioh - where this is actually joked about, because Chiyo's parents are never explicitly seen, but they joke about a cat-like character as being Chiyo's father.
Yeah... when you're making a comic or cartoon, everything exists there for a reason. You make everything! Be aware of the cliches / tropes, but don't regard them as plots or an ingredients list. And it is quite interesting to really take a hard look at why these things are written.
Ah that is funny! but no offence!! @_@ That is a coincidence! xD I got the idea since I'm having the heroine meet the hero by chance since she gets lost on her way to school... >3< lol
Thankyou so much^^ Keep up the awesome work! Lol thats alright, I can be lazy as well xD
Hahaha! That's sounds like me. ^^' I'm horrible at direction~ xDDD
But thank you! I'm glad it inspires you~ Hopefully I'll get going at it soon again, after all my cg requests are done~ I'm such a lazy procrastinator~ -3-
Yeah you're definitely right!! But I always fall into the trap Dx I'm loving these similar animes even though the plots are so common! xD But then I get all paranoid about copying! Lol I shall try some different things for sure in my romance shoujo! :D Btw I really like some of the manga/anime recommendations you've given me as they are more unique! Thanks!
ps. I'm sorry! Just realized I'm probably spamming your backroom, replying and commenting so much Dx
Yeah you're right! I'm thinking of having my heroine be strong though as well, but she's a dunce when it comes to direction xD
Oh I saw Question Cafe but only in its earlier stage so there weren't too many pages up. But I'll check it out again... Its really inspiring looking at your fan comics^^
The Marker Maniac. (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/01/12 | Reply
lol I've read some of those types of shoujo's they're okay, but they'll get annoying after a while! it's a good idea to spice things up, instead of going through the usual plots?!! XD
Thanks for posting those up, I skimmed through some, but I'll see if I read them properly!
Yeah I know!! I see that one the most too -.-' Lol I'm actually thinking of doing a manga with that type of storyline^^' It just so popular!
Oh and I've taken a look at your fan comics, but I haven't been able to read them fully yet, but I will!! They look really interesting and awesome^^
Lol xD I don't think I've seen that exact one before, but I've seen similar xD yeah, its amazing what is thought up and what plots used the most! lol >//u//<
Haha, wow, this was actually pretty interesting to read XD The things I would add is the "classic tripping" where the heroine and hero are fighting over something, maybe it's serious or playful, and then *SLIP* They fall on the bed, awkward blushing while the heroine lays there looking up at him and it's a random pause before the hero sees that he's on top of her XD
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/06/12 | Reply
@snow fox:
LOL I loved reading that super long insightful comment!!!! :D Thanks, Snowy! And I wasn't offended, I actually didn't even write those cliches No way I'd spend my time writing all those cliches xD. BUT that being said, I was on the road to using some of those in a manga I'm planning for fun. xD
I haven't spoken to you for a while so here's an update: I've taken a whole new angle and decided to draw a one-shot about shoujo... A little break from my usual focus on shounen/sports manga ideas. I've still not officially started, the plot is coming along slowly, I've got some main characters planned out... But I admit, I was focused on using some of these cliches (such as the absence of parents and so forth).
I agree with you though!! It is interesting to dissect these ideas and find out where they stem from. Thats a thought that came to me when I posted it... why are these so popular and what do they mean? Thankyou for posting your opinion and perspective... Your points make complete sense! I think this list is comical, thats saying the least about it xD I can't believe so many of these devices have been used so many times, over and over. I admit, recently I've been reading lots of shoujo/romance manga and I do get caught up in them. I'm really picky with this type of manga though, and I'm currently reading ToraDora, Nana, Bakuman, Dengeki Daisy, and some others. Even though they are unique, I still catch those cliches =_=' They do sell and these cliches can be interesting, for the reasons you pointed out. But you've helped me see everything in a different light^^ And you're right! I was having trouble separating my ideas from these cliches and you've helped me feel more confident about starting anew^^
Thanks again for the awesome comment, my friend! And its great to hear from you again *hugs*
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/06/12 | Reply
@Allie Elric:
Lol I know eh? That would be awesome to read if you made one!! xD
I'm actually thinking of making a serious romance shoujo one-shot and I've already fallen into the trap of adding a couple cliches to it xD lol!
Allie Elric
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/05/12 | Reply
@MangaKid:
It makes me wanna make a shojo cliche manga to make fun of those cliches x3
snow fox
The Silent (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/05/12 | Reply
Whew, ok - yeah. This comment is a very rambly thing, where I'm mulling over some of my thoughts on all of this. I'm really not intending to offend - I'm trying to think through some of this stuff myself.
These cliches are just that - cliches! These are not plots - they are plot devices. A debased element of "plot." I'd say you walk a fine line between cliche and something universally appealing, but these here are straight up cliches! Not that that means you can't use them. But, be aware of what you're doing. Are you trying to make a manga by recipe, or are you trying to tell a compelling story? I think my favorite uses of these tropes / cliches appear in anime or manga that make fun of themselves for using them, or just aren't very serious at all (Yeah yeah, I like Ouran Host High School Club - for what it is, it's a lot of fun; I call it a "crack"-anime, it's total sugar content). I'm a picky customer, though, and I'm not reading manga anymore (partially because I feel like so many manga are just so flimsy and have no real substance!). But I suppose that gets back to the point - why are you doing this, what's the story you want to tell, and who is your audience?
Most of these things - it would take a cultural historian and a team of psychologists to deconstruct the reasons why these plot devices are so common and so, so very popular!
I'm neither of those things. But I have my own opinions on the matter! I mean, first of all - outside of Japan, the biggest audience for manga is teens & pre-teens. What sells for those audiences? Romantic / sexual tension. Boom, adolescence! Hormones. That kind of stuff is going to resonate strongly with the audience.
Yeah, crossdressing... that's a strange one. Well, the manga-verse is all high fantasy (reality isn't as fun! and really, the whole point is to explore some new boundaries, like in sci-fi!). And yes - crossdressing as a plot device allows for romantic tension. A lot of those plots also hinge on the couple ending up as roommates, and the tension that goes with that. Beyond that though - (all of this is extreme speculation!) what is the purpose? Some might argue that crossdressing plot lines allow artists/writers to get around the taboo of homosexuality. Oh no, they're not gay, it's fine! They're opposite genders. It seems a lot rarer that there's actually a representation of homosexuality in these stories. So who are these stories for? Is it a cheap way to sort of put in some homosexual content without really devoting to it? Or... something else? Then there's something that doesn't get much attention - how does this all relate to trans* issues, if it does at all? Transgender individuals don't get much attention in the broader media-verse, and when they do, it's often in terribly flat, cartoonish and offensive portrayals. If you're going to use crossdressing in your manga, make sure you consider these ideas. I'm not sure many people do.
That dovetails with the sibling love taboo... what's the point of plot devices like these? Are these manga really trying to explore the boundaries of social taboos? Or are they just cashing in on the audience's desires to see certain things? I'm not sure where the distinction is there, but it's a thing to think about.
About parents being absent - yeah, that's a big one not just in anime, but in other cartoons. How many cartoons have the parents as active characters? Most Disney movies also have absent parents (Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin... on and on), or (less commonly) the character loses a parent (who will forget the scene when Mufasa died in the Lion King??). Much of the time, when the parents are present, it's a salient plot point or part of the character; Mulan goes to war, and a big part of her character development involves being true to herself and honoring her family); it's obvious how important Nemo's parents are in Finding Nemo - it's integral to the story itself. So... absent parents or orphans... it's a way to generate sympathy for the main character, or the cartoon is simply not about the parents. I'm thinking about Azumanga Daioh - where this is actually joked about, because Chiyo's parents are never explicitly seen, but they joke about a cat-like character as being Chiyo's father.
Yeah... when you're making a comic or cartoon, everything exists there for a reason. You make everything! Be aware of the cliches / tropes, but don't regard them as plots or an ingredients list. And it is quite interesting to really take a hard look at why these things are written.
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/02/12 | Reply
@superstarpanou:
Ah that is funny! but no offence!! @_@ That is a coincidence! xD I got the idea since I'm having the heroine meet the hero by chance since she gets lost on her way to school... >3< lol
Thankyou so much^^ Keep up the awesome work! Lol thats alright, I can be lazy as well xD
superstarpanou
Question Cafér (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/02/12 | Reply
@MangaKid:
Hahaha! That's sounds like me. ^^' I'm horrible at direction~ xDDD
But thank you! I'm glad it inspires you~ Hopefully I'll get going at it soon again, after all my cg requests are done~ I'm such a lazy procrastinator~ -3-
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/02/12 | Reply
@toyotami kun:
Yeah you're definitely right!! But I always fall into the trap Dx I'm loving these similar animes even though the plots are so common! xD But then I get all paranoid about copying! Lol I shall try some different things for sure in my romance shoujo! :D Btw I really like some of the manga/anime recommendations you've given me as they are more unique! Thanks!
ps. I'm sorry! Just realized I'm probably spamming your backroom, replying and commenting so much Dx
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/02/12 | Reply
@superstarpanou:
Yeah you're right! I'm thinking of having my heroine be strong though as well, but she's a dunce when it comes to direction xD
Oh I saw Question Cafe but only in its earlier stage so there weren't too many pages up. But I'll check it out again... Its really inspiring looking at your fan comics^^
toyotami kun
The Marker Maniac. (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/01/12 | Reply
lol I've read some of those types of shoujo's they're okay, but they'll get annoying after a while! it's a good idea to spice things up, instead of going through the usual plots?!! XD
Thanks for posting those up, I skimmed through some, but I'll see if I read them properly!
superstarpanou
Question Cafér (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/01/12 | Reply
@MangaKid:
Haha oh really? You should though~ I guess it's just annoying sometimes when the main girl is constantly always like that in the whole series. @_@
Anywho, it's okay! For my question cafe one-one, I haven't even drawn half of the script yet... ^^' So maybe it's better to wait it out? xDDD
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 03/01/12 | Reply
@superstarpanou:
Yeah I know!! I see that one the most too -.-' Lol I'm actually thinking of doing a manga with that type of storyline^^' It just so popular!
Oh and I've taken a look at your fan comics, but I haven't been able to read them fully yet, but I will!! They look really interesting and awesome^^
superstarpanou
Question Cafér (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/01/12 | Reply
Totally Cool Guy Falls for Clumsy/Idiot Girl
OMG! I see this one alllll the time and it annoys me often~~! Maybe it's cuz I'm getting older and more mature
and I'm really tomboyish myselfxDDDDDDMangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 02/29/12 | Reply
@Allie Elric:
Oh yeah! I think the author of this posts on tumblr herself too! I've never seen those, they sound super funny though xD
MangaKid
Otaku Legend | Posted 02/29/12 | Reply
@littlepooch:
Lol xD I don't think I've seen that exact one before, but I've seen similar xD yeah, its amazing what is thought up and what plots used the most! lol >//u//<
Allie Elric
Otaku Legend | Posted 02/29/12 | Reply
I haven't read all of it, but there's a shoujo-cliche tumblr blog that posts on things as the name suggests. I find it funny x3
littlepooch
Patchwork Rabbit (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 02/29/12 | Reply
Haha, wow, this was actually pretty interesting to read XD The things I would add is the "classic tripping" where the heroine and hero are fighting over something, maybe it's serious or playful, and then *SLIP* They fall on the bed, awkward blushing while the heroine lays there looking up at him and it's a random pause before the hero sees that he's on top of her XD