@bellpickle:

Thanks! I love writing about JoJo -- it is by far my favorite show airing right now. (Though AKB0048 might catch up soon; that series is almost as ridiculous.) I've seen a few things here and there hinting that the animation studio may be planning for beyond "Battle Tendency." I've also heard that the DVDs and Blu-rays are selling quite well; it's by far the best selling series David Production has made, so they'd be crazy not to continue it, especially if that influx of money can help fund the other weird shows they enjoy making.

@Rainbow Dragon:

Yeah, all comments are very much appreciated, even disagreeing comments! ^^

In regards to Katniss, I agree that her character was handled a lot better. The fact that Katniss is a girl was never a central issue in the movie. Actually, while I was watching the movie, I didn't even consciously think about the fact that the Hunger Games is an action movie that stars a female, and I didn't realize the significance of it until after I heard people discuss it afterwards. The Hunger Games was about a lot more than just a girl who is good at "guy" things. And I hadn't thought about it before, but you're right about Merida's whole cake plan being really messed up. There were so many dumb male characters in the movie, who were just as supportive of the arranged marriage and were really just as responsible for Merida's suffering as anyone else. But out of everyone, Merida decided to punish her mother, one of the few other female characters in the cast.

And though I agree that Brave was unusually Dreamworks-esque for a Pixar movie, I can't say I agree that Pixar is the worse studio overall. After all, Cars 2 was their first sequel movie other than the Toy Story franchise and Pixar actually only releases one movie a year, which is a pretty reasonable rate to go at. It's only recently that I've felt the studio's movies have taken a dip in quality; prior to Cars 2, I actually had quite a bit of faith in the studio. Nowadays though, I'm not so sure...

Can I weigh in on this conversation? I have a few thoughts on this subject as well.
Brave was a good movie,I said good,not "great". Pixar used to make really good films with good plots,decent characters,and good emotional depth. Again I good not great. I admit I cried during Brave because the whole mother/daughter relationship touched me. It made me think of the relationship with my mom and all the ups and downs we've had over the years. But it made me realize how much I love my mom.
I felt like Merida at times, sympathized with her,felt what she felt but I didn't really connect with her. I admit to being a bit of a tomboy but I also know that you have to be yourself amd follow the rules when necessary. Ok this is getting complicated,I'm going to switch up and try another subject.
I feel that pixar was attempting to create a Katniss like character but more simplistic(I don't know of that's the right word,maybe like Katniss but less badass?) anyway she uses a bow and arrow and but unlike Katniss, she's selfish and it takes her mother turning into a bear(which she causes by feeding her that damn cake that had the spell which she got from a witch. All so she didn't have to get married. What the hell? This still makes no bloody sense to me whatsoever. Katniss is forced to face circumstances far beyond her control. But merida had a choice, she could have tried to work things out with her mother. The bear plotline was bloody pointless. To me it was an attempt to rip off Dreamworks. Here is why I think this.
Dreamworks in my opinion, has far superior animation,better storylines,better characters,and so on. The movie brave had a ripped off Dreamworks feel. It wasn't deep and it didn't really live up to my expectations. I liked it don't get me wrong,but I didn't love it. I've kind of strayed away from Pixar because all their movies are either bad sequels(save Toy Story 3 and Brave. There needs to be a Finding Nemo 2 maybe) but I digress. They have been churning out movies a dime a dozen like they don't care and just only care about money. They don't care about quality the way dreamworks does. Dreamworks comes out with an animated film once in a while and it is usually good in story and quality. How To Train Your Dragon is a good example of this. Sure the title character is male but all the characters feel developed and deep. Brave does not have these elements. Just another way for pixar to stay relevant and to make more money. I rest my case.
Basically Dreamworks > Pixar. That's how I feel. Sorry this ran too long.
~Judai

@bellpickle:

Yes, that's quite valid - I'll have to think if I've seen anything where the male character rejected such gendered activities.

And yes, I'm quite familiar with Bechdel and the Bechdel Test! I did also recently marathon through all of Twelve Kingdoms... and it is interesting watching that character develop.

I didn't really mention it before - but some of Miyazaki's characters make for some great female leads.

...yeah, no, I'm totally drawing a blank here. I'm just not going to be able to come up with any male characters who reject their prescribed gender roles (at least not readily in Western animation), and certainly not in the sense that that's the main conflict for them. This kind of just seems like a case where we have to get over and beyond the "subverting female gender roles" as a conflict for female characters. They must be given something (some other legitimate thing!) else to do. That in itself... would be the subversion, at this point (especially if no one in the film said "wow, you're not being lady-like!"). Of course, that kind of thing plays out in Adventure Time. No one is telling Princess Bubblegum that she can't be a scientist - she just is both a scientist and the ruler of her kingdom (the Adventure Time comic issues that happen to flash-forward show her as Queen Bubblegum). No one in the show comments on how it's weird or unusual that she's a princess and a scientist. Everyone just knows it's awesome.

It might be interesting to consider characters that were written as male, that were then flipped to female. Jane Lynch has played several - including that Halo-esque warrior in Wreck-It Ralph. And Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) was written as male, and then just got flipped.

@snow fox:

You pretty much hit the nail on the head in regards to what bothered me most about Brave. Really, any of the leads in the previous Pixar movies could have been female and it wouldn't have made a huge difference. In my emails, I mentioned to my friend that that was one reason I was disappointed after seeing Brave. I was expecting for it to be a regular adventure movie that just so happened to star a female as the lead, but instead so much of the movie centered on the female gender role.

In regards to my comment about knitting being "subversive" for males, I wrote that because I do think that the majority of audiences would honestly be uncomfortable seeing a non-humorous portrayal of a male character who enjoys hobbies that have been strongly gendered "female." Though I said in my post that the story of Brave would've lost its impact if it had instead starred a male, now that I think about it, a male lead would've been ironically refreshing in its own way. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single mainstream, non-comedic Hollywood movie where the central issue revolved around a male character questioning and rejecting the male gender role, and especially without any implication that the character is transgender or homosexual. Male hobbies and the male role in general is assumed to be so superior and desirable that no one would think to reject it (which is obviously not true). As you mentioned, the male perspective is the norm, even amongst females. It is becoming increasingly acceptable for girls to play with boys' toys, so to speak, but the majority of people still do not seem to think it acceptable for boys to play with girls' toys.

When I think of strong female leads in animation, Mulan is definitely one of the characters who comes to mind, especially since she does not ultimately reject her femininity the way you would expect her to. All the other characters I can think of come from anime (e.g. the lead of Twelve Kingdoms is a very good example). I've only seen a little of Adventure Time, though I've heard so much about it, I really need to watch more at some point...

On a related note, have you heard of the Bechdel Test? If you haven't, I strongly suggest you check it out! You'll probably find it interesting, if not at least a little depressing. ^^;;

@Shinmaru:

Yeah, I kind of feel like the movie was trying to juggle too many subplots at once, and the result was that all of them felt underdeveloped. I also didn't find the mother-daughter relationship all that interesting, but I think it was at least partly because I never felt too emotionally attached to either of the characters. And considering their past work, I thought the writers of Pixar had already perfected the formula for "tugging on the audience's heartstrings."

Also fyi, I have very much enjoyed your commentary on Jojo over at The Cart Driver. Here's hoping for Phantom Blood...!

@:

Conversely, I think we can pack a little bit more depth into it than just "there is a time when you need to follow the rules" - it could be something a little more along the lines of, "Oh hey, we went through this story arc, and now I respect your thoughts a little more, and you respect mine a little more, so you come to appreciate the worth of this role we were previously trying to force you to play, and you actually kind of want to do it now."

In The Lion King, it's a little more cut and dry - Simba really did need to come back and follow the rules; he needed to do a tiny bit of growth to realize it, but the system itself didn't change in any noticeable way - he was just taking his place in the circle of life afterall.

I haven't see it in a while (so maybe I'm making this up), but Merida wasn't forced to marry someone at the end, so in that sense the system (slightly) changed.

Sometimes these things merit a bit of "overthinking" - media representations of women and minority groups do actually impact how people view each other.

I haven't really seen Brave enough times to comment thoughtfully here. Partly... I didn't think it was actually compelling enough to make me want to watch it again. Which is a different comment on it, as I generally love Pixar movies. I was a little underwhelmed. I think I was just so happy that they finally had a movie with a female lead that I was reluctant to really criticize (which is also rather problematic, I am aware).

In some ways, I might be tempted to watch this and then watch Beauty and the Beast (and perhaps other Pixar & Disney movies) and take some notes and make comparisons - regarding their female characters and the 'conflicts' they face, etc. I only really note Belle in particular because she's also depicted as rejecting a male character.

I know you've said it in jest, but it's not really advancing the dialog to suggest that knitting is a subversive activity for a male. If part of the problem here is that we're all, on some level, buying in to the typecast gender roles, then is it required that we (as individuals) stop reinforcing them in this way? Or is that precisely your point there? I've just so commonly seen needlework, stitching, knitting, etc. paired with "subversive" themes and content - and while I do love the craft - you can only see so many camouflage knit prints and knitted tanks & machinery before getting burned out on the idea in general.

I think it's interesting that most of the recent (since The Little Mermaid) Disney movies feature female leads - with a male every now and then - and all Pixar movies (save Brave) feature male leads. Another interesting question would be - how many female characters are actually in each of those Pixar movies? What roles do they have? How many screen minutes do they get? Of course, I'm not really trying to make a direct comparison between Disney and Pixar movies here (I recognize Pixar movies are under the Disney flagship, but I regard them as different things) - Pixar's characters and stories generally have more depth in character and emotional tone.

I'm sorry I can't cite a source for this, but I did read that some studies found that - in experiments in classrooms, when teachers objectively give equal discussion time / attention to girls and boys, the teacher thinks s/he is giving more time to the girls, and the male students also think the teacher is giving more time to the girls. Objectively, they were given the same amount of time. But it's so ingrained in our society that girls should "be seen and not heard" that it really affects us and how we perceive things. I find this related to this discussion. In a society where, at the most basic level, we perceive attention to girls as something imbalanced - weighing more, in a sense - than attention to boys, it becomes obvious that we can't make movies entirely about them. They (the female characters) must only be accessories to the main (read: male) event.

Also, that rat in Ratatouille could have been female. Switch the gender, and it would have made no impact on the story itself. Except... we (as a society) don't see female as "neutral" - male is neutral, the standard, the norm.

This isn't really to disparage all of Pixar's work... their emotional depth is really quite striking. It's just that there's this glaring problem that... all of the emotional depth revolves around male characters. It would be nice if... they could translate that over to their female characters. If Brave really was the equivalent of Toy Story or Finding Nemo, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

The Incredibles had some pretty kickass lady characters in it. Although they didn't drive the action - it was Mr. Incredible's story. I haven't seen that one in a while. There are some plot points in it that we might take issue with, from a feminist perspective.

I know this isn't in the scope of this particular post - but where have you found really compelling characters in animation who happen to be female? It may just be that I'm obsessed with it right now, but I'd say Adventure Time does a pretty fantastic job of creating wonderful characters. I know... its main characters are dudes. In this context it really pains me to say... but...! the show treats several of its "side" characters as fully developed characters. They're not just there for the entertainment of the main dude, in other words. They have their own motives and lives, independent of the others. As of late, Adventure Time seems to be somewhat more of an ensamble show - not necessarily centered around Finn & Jake as much as it initially was. But I could just be perceiving it that way because the creators have done such an excellent job fleshing out the world and the other characters.

It is telling, though, that one of the most-loved episodes (by fans) is the Fiona and Cake gender-swapped episode. That speaks volumes to the need other there - for actual "strong" female characters. I hesitate to use that phrase, so I use it with quote marks. So often, what we get with a "strong female character" is a character defined by that one aspect. In some misguided attempt to make her "strong" - she's been made flat and somewhat lacking in some certain truth. Because want we really want is a real character. Saying "strong" just seems to be beside the point. We don't need more "strong" sidekicks and sassy ladies for the male leads to fall in love with, that is.

Yes, I definitely agree with what you're saying there about Merida's story. "But I don't want to be a girl and do girl things!" - can we please have a story about women that doesn't revolve around that as the conflict, Pixar?

I definitely liked reading through your comments - this is certainly the type of thing I ponder, and like to talk through with others.

I think the mother-daughter relationship wasn't all it could have been, either. I was surprised by how little time was actually dedicated to the "bonding and understanding" portion. Even for a Hollywood movie, it seemed simplified to me. That's part of the problem of appealing to a broad audience, I suppose.

EDIT: Also wanted to say I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts on things like this. :)

I think part of the issue you're getting at here is that, sadly, we as a society have not yet progressed far enough. We're still caught in the middle of a struggle to get beyond our prejudices, whether they be racial or based on gender or sexuality, and so these perceived differences do define that struggle. I haven't seen Brave, but I think another thing to consider about it is the time period it appears to be set in, during a time and in a society where there were clear lines of what was expected of men and women, so yes in that case the struggle a girl wanting more out of life than what is expected of her would very much revolve around her gender and the deeply embedded cultural norms she would have to deal with.

And actually, I can think of one gay character in Doctor Who completely undefined by her sexuality that pre-dates Captain Jack. When the Eighth Doctor was still the current incarnation, in the DW Magazine comic strips, he had a companion named Izzy, and her defining characteristic was that she was a geek and a fangirl. A few subtle hints were dropped on rare occasions that she might be gay, but this was left unconfirmed until her final story.