If I read that article as being about friendly competition and what motivates that particular artist, then I don't have much to say about it. spacecowboytv liked things one way, and not another. If that's an argument, then I don't find it very interesting at all, since it doesn't say anything substantial, really.
However, it seems to suggest that superior artists enjoy competition and votes, and if those criteria or standards aren't there, then they'll move on "to better things like Deviant art to challenge themselves." That part absolutely grates. I think that artist usually challenge themselves without constraining themselves by various institutional standards.
I can't say too much about it, though, in a single comment. To fully examine the article, I'd have to write my own lengthy article. That would be more difficult because spacecowboytv's article is slightly confusing; it contains multiple issues, all of them not the same. To disentangle them would take some time, and I'd like to put it all in my own full post instead.
For what I seen these weeks I'm still at awe and shock!
It's true this place had a lot of activity lately,it's been so many things to do in so little time and so many things going on.Kinda like how you included the comments of SpaceCB and how his view of the site lands against our own. I'm not much of a competitive soul even thou some persons really get my spirit out.For all the time I will say I come to write and visit because it's fun and not because I want to "prove" myself or something like that.
Seems I will have more time to visit this week,work has been taking so much of my time.It's great to have the chance to read your comments,they are very valuable to me.
Gona give another eye to the article,it really takes a lot of emotion in each sentence.
Angel
Last edited by AngelBest Dream at 3:22:53 PM CST on January 11, 2012.
That post could have been titled "Shock and Awe" instead.
I can understand if you've been busy lately. The past couple of days have kept me away from here, too, but I managed to make it today to catch-up with what I missed. theO has been a more interesting place to be the past few days/weeks, so I hope you have more time to visit the site more often! I thought I saw you submit another new piece of art, so I'll have to go look at it after I'm done checking the new comments.
That was "a post" !
First of all I must say I been resting&&woking a lot lately and I don't have any idea "about" and not limiting myself to anything in particular.
Whats going on
It's a big and endless question that doesn't find a fast answer in my mind.There is no any need for more "pricing" as I got all the will fortune I will ever need or use.Given by my friends , people around and even a great old frined.There is more in terms of your great influence that you could ever imagine,just when it surfaces you will become aware and nervous.
Let's take a break and watch.
Angel
Last edited by AngelBest Dream at 12:59:35 AM CST on January 8, 2012.
Well, I already mentioned this in a previous reply, but it's worth mentioning again: no single person is at fault. It doesn't work that way.
Let's say I take the forehead slapping position that you're to blame!!! Well, then you can counter with the equally valid point that some people will actually read down, and not up. The window pops up, then they see the most recent comment, which for some might actually be something like #23. Here, that person sees "drama" and again reads it immediately below in comment #22. Who do we "blame" then? Numbers 23 and 22? Well, again, I don't want to really place blame on any person, really. I'm more concerned with a certain mindset or perspective that stretches far wider than theO.
Like you mention, you find in in high schools and beyond. In one comment I quoted, that member found it among adults in the workplace, of all places. I'd be hard pressed to find the first person who labelled something as "drama" just as much as I'd be to find the first person who used the word "is". But I don't really have much problems with "is" and it's derivations. I just want to highlight quite clearly and openly the potential effects of using certain words or adopting certain perspectives. In this case, it almost stopped us from doing something that might be kind fun. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if it'll actually be fun or a waste of time, but I'll hedge my bets that we'll do this and then move on without making that much of a ruckus worth ruckusing about.
I remember when the articles sections were in their golden age back when SOAP was alive and well. (Please excuse my backwards oldman sounding romanticism) Back then, you found all kinds of great discussions going on here and there, and at times getting fairly heated. The neat thing was how some friendships were actually born from those engagements. People learned what each other thought about this and that, and it was quite open. Like I was getting at in my post, we never did engage in dramas, but had open discussion and debate which kept most of us accountable to what we wrote. (Those who weren't accountable for various reasons were handled by the moderators, and they'll do the same today.) I think the same thing happens here, but it got clouded by thinking of some things in a certain way. Mind you, I'm not placing on official judgement or proscription on words or perspectives (that's impossible) but I'm doing something similar to what many of what you were doing: seeing possible troubles in something. Except, I diverge in how and where the troubles may arise and how they might be fixed or avoided. We can just drop things that don't work and find other things that do it better.
What might be a better way? Well, you gave some good suggestions. Right now, I agree with The Mask when he says to let it run its course for now. We really can't make any changes, even if we tried to on the day the post was made. But we can learn from this and see what worked and what didn't. The model you give might work better on a large site like this. We won't know until we give it a shot.
Thanks for the comment! It is deeply appreciated and helpful.
I didn't like how it was being framed as something potentially causing "drama" for various reasons. Here, I have to give more depth to what I left out of my post. By "drama", I'm not exactly sure what was meant by that. It seems intuitively clear, but when you take a closer look at it, then it becomes murky and confused.
As an example that was brought up in the comments section, some mentioned the Greatest Character Ever event we had here. Others mentioned other vague stuff like "petty drama", which I'll admit I'm not even sure what that is. If it's petty, then it's not worth mentioning in the first place and by extension it's not worth worry over, right? It should seem, but let's include it to the drama-count for the sake of argument. Okay, we have drama like the Greatest Character Ever event and we have this amorphous class of drama which includes pettiness. Consider an example that I think exemplifies what someone might think of as being petty: I get into a big argument with another member because I don't like the YouTube links he posts. I think they're an affront to good sense, so we go back and forth drawing more and more people in to it. Another example: I see two people discussing something that's not even remotely my business, but I decide to make it my business anyway. By doing so, let's say my intervention makes it worse and it then pulls in another person who then takes sides. Again, someone could look at these examples and pass them off as drama. However, here I would be careful to make some distinctions.
In the first example, it's quite dumb of me to argue over YouTube. That's petty. In the second, if it's far more personal and friendships are involved, then that's something different than the first. It might be petty, but some level of discussion has to take place between the two; otherwise, whatever issue they have might get worse if they leave it ignored. In any case, the second example is of a significantly different character that the first. Now let's consider a third: Greatest Character Ever!!! If you look at the comments on that one, then there was some interesting ones indeed. Mind you, nothing was ever personal or hurtful, and I for one enjoyed all of it! We got together and had popcorn, argued, and laughed, and raged! But notice that this again is something different that the other two previous examples. There's something qualitatively different between this third example and my second example. To now make it clear why I'm concerned with "drama" talk, I'll pull it all together now and show some problems with it.
When you don't really say exactly what is drama or when you pass events off as being simply drama, then you lose what makes one situation qualitatively different than another. My examples 1 - 3 all get passed off as being drama, but they're all not the same. Each requires different approaches, but that's not possible when they get lumped together as being one thing. Go back and look at the comments, and it's not really clear exactly what's meant by drama. Is it potentially hurt feelings? Is it discussing fictional characters? Is it something related to competition? I don't know. That's why I find it unhelpful and unclear in this case. But I do think our members are capable of spotting those problems. If I can help (in my own big-mouth way) to shift the ground and present possible solutions and better problems to think about, then I'll just do my bit here. Thanks for taking the time to read this!
First of all, that's for the thoughtful comment. I always appreciate them wherever I find them!
I think I can break this into even two more manageable and distinct parts. On the one hand, you mention rightly "that people are taking this too seriously." As a statement of fact, that's fairly clear and easy to back-up with good evidence from the sheer numbers of comments who did so. I saw that, you saw that, and many others saw that, too. However, while I can't sensibly disagree with how people actually are taking something, I can disagree on another level, which I hope I made reasonably clear.
And it's here where I'm more interested in the second aspect that can be contested and modified: We don't need to see it that way, since seeing it that way isn't very helpful at all when making any kinds of reasoned decisions. I'm more concerned with trying to shift one perspective to another, where we can then discuss things without resigning before we even start. Approaching a question, debate, dialog, or argument with a perspective or idea that somehow works against it isn't really a good way to do so. Here, I can back up my claim that what first happened in the comments sections was more or less exactly what I said: people adopted a stance that prevented them from engaging in the topic, which then accumulated and grew into more people accepting that stance. Some openly admit that they were going to vote, but then read select comments and possibly keyed into a select word - viz. drama - and decided on those comments to not vote at all. I must make myself clear that I'm not blaming any specific person, since I don't think it actually works that neatly and cleanly. However, one stance was close to becoming the dominant one, and I didn't see it as being the most helpful one to take. And here's the neat thing: we could easily drop that perspective and do something else.
In fact, going back over the comments again today, I see that some members have done just that. Now, personally, that really encourages me that as members we can handle these sorts of things. Just shed some light on some issues and discuss 'em, then some problems don't get solved, but merely dissolve because they weren't actual difficult problems in the first place.
GAH! That's the term I was thinking of but couldn't put my finger on: Self-fulfilling prophesy! Thank you! xD Now my mind won't be smokin' for the next few hours to think of it...
I think people are pretty much READY to start drama before the competition is even underway. Some of the people who brought up how this was a bad idea are some of the ones I feel who WOULD start the drama themselves or just be involved in it somehow (like fuel to a fire).
Initially, I felt a little taken back by the idea of this competition, but then I thought, "Hmm.. Why am I upset about this? Am I jelly?" lol A little competition is good and healthy. People just need not to get all up in a huff over this. If they want the top prize so badly (whatever it is), then they'll do something more or better for the next time.
I don't know. Anyway, I appreciate your sharing this with us! :)
I agree with most of the points you brought to light. What I am concerned with, which is the main reason why I wrote out my expressed 'opinion' in the first place, is that people are taking this too seriously. Although it is only a poll meant to be used to show appreciation toward other members, people are taking it as a full-blown popularity contest and refusing to partake in it due to the chance that other members will also take it as seriously as they are. This is causing other members to with-hold their votes after seeing what a big deal this is to the people who commented prior to them. I myself find it hard to choose between people and was tempted not to vote after reading all of the opinions of those against this contest... but I voted anyway. It's meant as a friendly competition and lots of members deserve recognition, so why not embrace the chance to get them recognized?
This point of disagreements that you brought up is correct. As a whole, such a contest does seem like a good idea if it were held in an anonymous manner or one that would include the community as a whole. And by this I am referring to a method in which each artist partakes in a contest of skills rather than popularity. But even this has it's fall-backs, as those with lesser art, wallpaper, or e-card skills would thus be left out. On an online site, people are going to disagree. There is always going to be one idea that seems safe, but then creates tension anyways. I want to thank you for writing this, since it enlightened me on the issue and how it shouldn't really be an issue at all. The internet is a game and art websites in particular are games of competition. If no one is "cheating" or "fouling the system", shouldn't we all be able to get along and enjoy the activities being presented to us?
I think their worries are somewhat legitimate, and I can't completely discount them. However, it worries me to see something being potentially stopped and silenced before it even has a chance to start. I doubt the creators of this little nominations had anything remotely bad in mind, but thought it would be a neat way to show some member supported appreciation. In other words, we're the ones doing the thinking and choosing, and as such it ought to keep us fairly honest to see our choices and thoughts in a public forum.
I like how those kinds of forums and discussions encourage the members to think among themselves in the open. Why silence those kinds of things when we might have the chance to take something positive away from it? And by positive, I don't exactly mean something feel-good. Not all good things are warm, fuzzy, and easy. Mind you, I'm not advocating that we all grab clubs and go wild on each other. I'm also not saying that every discussion has to be ultra-serious as if Socrates himself is giving us a lecture. Those have their places (and this was once of them, to a certain degree, hence my post) but we can't discount something just because it might in principle hurt some unnamed theoretical member who exists in the future!
If you're going to nominate, then go for it! Have fun with it, and don't take the actual nominations as being on par with the Nobel Prize. It's our nominations alone, and if we make it positive, then that's fantastic stuff.
I trust our mods would catch it if it ever devolved into something bad. I've seen them do their stuff in the past when things got iffy, and it was halted quickly enough. So yeah, I think a fairly solid foundation is already in place to stop it from hitting rock bottom.
As far as friends nominating friends, which I didn't touch upon, that can be the result of various things. What most likely happens when a friend nominates a friend isn't because of some nefarious scheme, but probably because some members on here travel in and with a fairly small circle of friends. As such, you mostly see what each other is doing, while not really seeing what people outside your social group are doing. That's quite different than saying that some people are playing favorites based on friendship. Those other options aren't being directly ignored or snubbed for personal reasons, but they aren't even options to be considered because they just don't exist. I can't choose something that I'm not aware of, and I can't really expect anyone here to nominate me for fan artist since I only draw one darn picture per-year, and I'm not as active a commentator in the fan art section as I used to be years ago. The folks who do visit the fan art section regularly and submit often are probably more familiar with certain members than others who aren't really visible for various reasons. Again, this isn't the shady plot that some would like to think is really happening when a friend recognizes a friend. I'll never be familiar with Sir Galahad who runs the Automail Shop on the east end of town if I never visit that part.
I agree with a lot of what you said. People are taking this VERY seriously, and stating what they feel, but then writing it off as a "no one will listen/care/read". This new member thing could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what people make of it. To me, it was just a light-hearted event, maybe showing appreciation. I would be honored if I was nominated, but I'd be just as happy for anyone else. I like to joke, sure, but only for laughs :D. I say we just drop the negative connotations this kind of "contest" has taken, and just have fun with it:]. That's what theO's about, isn't it? We made it fun, let's keep it fun.
Wow, I just said something that made sense :D.
Oh, and of course, as an "old spurned art student" myself, I would hurt too, of course. I think everyone deserves some type of appreciation. As said before, everyone gets my vote.
Last edited by beloved blood at 9:39:52 PM CST on December 28, 2011.
Baron of Terribad (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/28/11 | Reply
Yeah, I do think there is a self-fulfilling prophecy going on here -- or, at least, the seeds of one, since, as you point out, nothing has really started yet. I can see the good intentions in not wanting people's feelings hurt, but honestly, if people have their feelings hurt by what will be, at worst, a silly Internet popularity contest, then that person really should not be coddled. A little perspective never hurt anyone. Besides, if things threatened to get out of control, then I don't doubt our fine crew of mods would cool things down.
Maybe I'm being naive, but I think people here are generally decent folks. I don't think it will devolve into name-calling that easily. And if people just nominate their friends, then so what? That's what people do. We'd like to think that everyone will go through as many submissions as possible to find the best person, but there's so much out there, and plenty of it of decent quality. If the contest spotlights some good artists, then hey, I think that's an admirable enough goal.
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 01/12/12 | Reply
@AngelBest Dream:
If I read that article as being about friendly competition and what motivates that particular artist, then I don't have much to say about it. spacecowboytv liked things one way, and not another. If that's an argument, then I don't find it very interesting at all, since it doesn't say anything substantial, really.
However, it seems to suggest that superior artists enjoy competition and votes, and if those criteria or standards aren't there, then they'll move on "to better things like Deviant art to challenge themselves." That part absolutely grates. I think that artist usually challenge themselves without constraining themselves by various institutional standards.
I can't say too much about it, though, in a single comment. To fully examine the article, I'd have to write my own lengthy article. That would be more difficult because spacecowboytv's article is slightly confusing; it contains multiple issues, all of them not the same. To disentangle them would take some time, and I'd like to put it all in my own full post instead.
AngelBest Dream
Holy Knight (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 01/11/12 | Reply
@Pleiades Rising:
For what I seen these weeks I'm still at awe and shock!
It's true this place had a lot of activity lately,it's been so many things to do in so little time and so many things going on.Kinda like how you included the comments of SpaceCB and how his view of the site lands against our own. I'm not much of a competitive soul even thou some persons really get my spirit out.For all the time I will say I come to write and visit because it's fun and not because I want to "prove" myself or something like that.
Seems I will have more time to visit this week,work has been taking so much of my time.It's great to have the chance to read your comments,they are very valuable to me.
Gona give another eye to the article,it really takes a lot of emotion in each sentence.
Angel
Last edited by AngelBest Dream at 3:22:53 PM CST on January 11, 2012.
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 01/10/12 | Reply
@AngelBest Dream:
That post could have been titled "Shock and Awe" instead.
I can understand if you've been busy lately. The past couple of days have kept me away from here, too, but I managed to make it today to catch-up with what I missed. theO has been a more interesting place to be the past few days/weeks, so I hope you have more time to visit the site more often! I thought I saw you submit another new piece of art, so I'll have to go look at it after I'm done checking the new comments.
AngelBest Dream
Holy Knight (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 01/08/12 | Reply
That was "a post" !
First of all I must say I been resting&&woking a lot lately and I don't have any idea "about" and not limiting myself to anything in particular.
Whats going on
It's a big and endless question that doesn't find a fast answer in my mind.There is no any need for more "pricing" as I got all the will fortune I will ever need or use.Given by my friends , people around and even a great old frined.There is more in terms of your great influence that you could ever imagine,just when it surfaces you will become aware and nervous.
Let's take a break and watch.
Angel
Last edited by AngelBest Dream at 12:59:35 AM CST on January 8, 2012.
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/30/11 | Reply
@:
Well, I already mentioned this in a previous reply, but it's worth mentioning again: no single person is at fault. It doesn't work that way.
Let's say I take the forehead slapping position that you're to blame!!! Well, then you can counter with the equally valid point that some people will actually read down, and not up. The window pops up, then they see the most recent comment, which for some might actually be something like #23. Here, that person sees "drama" and again reads it immediately below in comment #22. Who do we "blame" then? Numbers 23 and 22? Well, again, I don't want to really place blame on any person, really. I'm more concerned with a certain mindset or perspective that stretches far wider than theO.
Like you mention, you find in in high schools and beyond. In one comment I quoted, that member found it among adults in the workplace, of all places. I'd be hard pressed to find the first person who labelled something as "drama" just as much as I'd be to find the first person who used the word "is". But I don't really have much problems with "is" and it's derivations. I just want to highlight quite clearly and openly the potential effects of using certain words or adopting certain perspectives. In this case, it almost stopped us from doing something that might be kind fun. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if it'll actually be fun or a waste of time, but I'll hedge my bets that we'll do this and then move on without making that much of a ruckus worth ruckusing about.
I remember when the articles sections were in their golden age back when SOAP was alive and well. (Please excuse my backwards oldman sounding romanticism) Back then, you found all kinds of great discussions going on here and there, and at times getting fairly heated. The neat thing was how some friendships were actually born from those engagements. People learned what each other thought about this and that, and it was quite open. Like I was getting at in my post, we never did engage in dramas, but had open discussion and debate which kept most of us accountable to what we wrote. (Those who weren't accountable for various reasons were handled by the moderators, and they'll do the same today.) I think the same thing happens here, but it got clouded by thinking of some things in a certain way. Mind you, I'm not placing on official judgement or proscription on words or perspectives (that's impossible) but I'm doing something similar to what many of what you were doing: seeing possible troubles in something. Except, I diverge in how and where the troubles may arise and how they might be fixed or avoided. We can just drop things that don't work and find other things that do it better.
What might be a better way? Well, you gave some good suggestions. Right now, I agree with The Mask when he says to let it run its course for now. We really can't make any changes, even if we tried to on the day the post was made. But we can learn from this and see what worked and what didn't. The model you give might work better on a large site like this. We won't know until we give it a shot.
Thanks for the comment! It is deeply appreciated and helpful.
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/30/11 | Reply
@twilight samurai:
I didn't like how it was being framed as something potentially causing "drama" for various reasons. Here, I have to give more depth to what I left out of my post. By "drama", I'm not exactly sure what was meant by that. It seems intuitively clear, but when you take a closer look at it, then it becomes murky and confused.
As an example that was brought up in the comments section, some mentioned the Greatest Character Ever event we had here. Others mentioned other vague stuff like "petty drama", which I'll admit I'm not even sure what that is. If it's petty, then it's not worth mentioning in the first place and by extension it's not worth worry over, right? It should seem, but let's include it to the drama-count for the sake of argument. Okay, we have drama like the Greatest Character Ever event and we have this amorphous class of drama which includes pettiness. Consider an example that I think exemplifies what someone might think of as being petty: I get into a big argument with another member because I don't like the YouTube links he posts. I think they're an affront to good sense, so we go back and forth drawing more and more people in to it. Another example: I see two people discussing something that's not even remotely my business, but I decide to make it my business anyway. By doing so, let's say my intervention makes it worse and it then pulls in another person who then takes sides. Again, someone could look at these examples and pass them off as drama. However, here I would be careful to make some distinctions.
In the first example, it's quite dumb of me to argue over YouTube. That's petty. In the second, if it's far more personal and friendships are involved, then that's something different than the first. It might be petty, but some level of discussion has to take place between the two; otherwise, whatever issue they have might get worse if they leave it ignored. In any case, the second example is of a significantly different character that the first. Now let's consider a third: Greatest Character Ever!!! If you look at the comments on that one, then there was some interesting ones indeed. Mind you, nothing was ever personal or hurtful, and I for one enjoyed all of it! We got together and had popcorn, argued, and laughed, and raged! But notice that this again is something different that the other two previous examples. There's something qualitatively different between this third example and my second example. To now make it clear why I'm concerned with "drama" talk, I'll pull it all together now and show some problems with it.
When you don't really say exactly what is drama or when you pass events off as being simply drama, then you lose what makes one situation qualitatively different than another. My examples 1 - 3 all get passed off as being drama, but they're all not the same. Each requires different approaches, but that's not possible when they get lumped together as being one thing. Go back and look at the comments, and it's not really clear exactly what's meant by drama. Is it potentially hurt feelings? Is it discussing fictional characters? Is it something related to competition? I don't know. That's why I find it unhelpful and unclear in this case. But I do think our members are capable of spotting those problems. If I can help (in my own big-mouth way) to shift the ground and present possible solutions and better problems to think about, then I'll just do my bit here. Thanks for taking the time to read this!
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/29/11 | Reply
@DixieWings:
First of all, that's for the thoughtful comment. I always appreciate them wherever I find them!
I think I can break this into even two more manageable and distinct parts. On the one hand, you mention rightly "that people are taking this too seriously." As a statement of fact, that's fairly clear and easy to back-up with good evidence from the sheer numbers of comments who did so. I saw that, you saw that, and many others saw that, too. However, while I can't sensibly disagree with how people actually are taking something, I can disagree on another level, which I hope I made reasonably clear.
And it's here where I'm more interested in the second aspect that can be contested and modified: We don't need to see it that way, since seeing it that way isn't very helpful at all when making any kinds of reasoned decisions. I'm more concerned with trying to shift one perspective to another, where we can then discuss things without resigning before we even start. Approaching a question, debate, dialog, or argument with a perspective or idea that somehow works against it isn't really a good way to do so. Here, I can back up my claim that what first happened in the comments sections was more or less exactly what I said: people adopted a stance that prevented them from engaging in the topic, which then accumulated and grew into more people accepting that stance. Some openly admit that they were going to vote, but then read select comments and possibly keyed into a select word - viz. drama - and decided on those comments to not vote at all. I must make myself clear that I'm not blaming any specific person, since I don't think it actually works that neatly and cleanly. However, one stance was close to becoming the dominant one, and I didn't see it as being the most helpful one to take. And here's the neat thing: we could easily drop that perspective and do something else.
In fact, going back over the comments again today, I see that some members have done just that. Now, personally, that really encourages me that as members we can handle these sorts of things. Just shed some light on some issues and discuss 'em, then some problems don't get solved, but merely dissolve because they weren't actual difficult problems in the first place.
twilight samurai
Redeemed (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/29/11 | Reply
@Shinmaru:
GAH! That's the term I was thinking of but couldn't put my finger on: Self-fulfilling prophesy! Thank you! xD Now my mind won't be smokin' for the next few hours to think of it...
twilight samurai
Redeemed (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/29/11 | Reply
I think people are pretty much READY to start drama before the competition is even underway. Some of the people who brought up how this was a bad idea are some of the ones I feel who WOULD start the drama themselves or just be involved in it somehow (like fuel to a fire).
Initially, I felt a little taken back by the idea of this competition, but then I thought, "Hmm.. Why am I upset about this? Am I jelly?" lol A little competition is good and healthy. People just need not to get all up in a huff over this. If they want the top prize so badly (whatever it is), then they'll do something more or better for the next time.
I don't know. Anyway, I appreciate your sharing this with us! :)
DixieWings
Daydreamer (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/29/11 | Reply
I agree with most of the points you brought to light. What I am concerned with, which is the main reason why I wrote out my expressed 'opinion' in the first place, is that people are taking this too seriously. Although it is only a poll meant to be used to show appreciation toward other members, people are taking it as a full-blown popularity contest and refusing to partake in it due to the chance that other members will also take it as seriously as they are. This is causing other members to with-hold their votes after seeing what a big deal this is to the people who commented prior to them. I myself find it hard to choose between people and was tempted not to vote after reading all of the opinions of those against this contest... but I voted anyway. It's meant as a friendly competition and lots of members deserve recognition, so why not embrace the chance to get them recognized?
This point of disagreements that you brought up is correct. As a whole, such a contest does seem like a good idea if it were held in an anonymous manner or one that would include the community as a whole. And by this I am referring to a method in which each artist partakes in a contest of skills rather than popularity. But even this has it's fall-backs, as those with lesser art, wallpaper, or e-card skills would thus be left out. On an online site, people are going to disagree. There is always going to be one idea that seems safe, but then creates tension anyways. I want to thank you for writing this, since it enlightened me on the issue and how it shouldn't really be an issue at all. The internet is a game and art websites in particular are games of competition. If no one is "cheating" or "fouling the system", shouldn't we all be able to get along and enjoy the activities being presented to us?
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/28/11 | Reply
@beloved blood:
Thanks for the comment! It's most welcome.
I think their worries are somewhat legitimate, and I can't completely discount them. However, it worries me to see something being potentially stopped and silenced before it even has a chance to start. I doubt the creators of this little nominations had anything remotely bad in mind, but thought it would be a neat way to show some member supported appreciation. In other words, we're the ones doing the thinking and choosing, and as such it ought to keep us fairly honest to see our choices and thoughts in a public forum.
I like how those kinds of forums and discussions encourage the members to think among themselves in the open. Why silence those kinds of things when we might have the chance to take something positive away from it? And by positive, I don't exactly mean something feel-good. Not all good things are warm, fuzzy, and easy. Mind you, I'm not advocating that we all grab clubs and go wild on each other. I'm also not saying that every discussion has to be ultra-serious as if Socrates himself is giving us a lecture. Those have their places (and this was once of them, to a certain degree, hence my post) but we can't discount something just because it might in principle hurt some unnamed theoretical member who exists in the future!
If you're going to nominate, then go for it! Have fun with it, and don't take the actual nominations as being on par with the Nobel Prize. It's our nominations alone, and if we make it positive, then that's fantastic stuff.
Pleiades Rising
Otaku Idol (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/28/11 | Reply
@Shinmaru:
I trust our mods would catch it if it ever devolved into something bad. I've seen them do their stuff in the past when things got iffy, and it was halted quickly enough. So yeah, I think a fairly solid foundation is already in place to stop it from hitting rock bottom.
As far as friends nominating friends, which I didn't touch upon, that can be the result of various things. What most likely happens when a friend nominates a friend isn't because of some nefarious scheme, but probably because some members on here travel in and with a fairly small circle of friends. As such, you mostly see what each other is doing, while not really seeing what people outside your social group are doing. That's quite different than saying that some people are playing favorites based on friendship. Those other options aren't being directly ignored or snubbed for personal reasons, but they aren't even options to be considered because they just don't exist. I can't choose something that I'm not aware of, and I can't really expect anyone here to nominate me for fan artist since I only draw one darn picture per-year, and I'm not as active a commentator in the fan art section as I used to be years ago. The folks who do visit the fan art section regularly and submit often are probably more familiar with certain members than others who aren't really visible for various reasons. Again, this isn't the shady plot that some would like to think is really happening when a friend recognizes a friend. I'll never be familiar with Sir Galahad who runs the Automail Shop on the east end of town if I never visit that part.
beloved blood
Otaku Eternal | Posted 12/28/11 | Reply
I agree with a lot of what you said. People are taking this VERY seriously, and stating what they feel, but then writing it off as a "no one will listen/care/read". This new member thing could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what people make of it. To me, it was just a light-hearted event, maybe showing appreciation. I would be honored if I was nominated, but I'd be just as happy for anyone else. I like to joke, sure, but only for laughs :D. I say we just drop the negative connotations this kind of "contest" has taken, and just have fun with it:]. That's what theO's about, isn't it? We made it fun, let's keep it fun.
Wow, I just said something that made sense :D.
Oh, and of course, as an "old spurned art student" myself, I would hurt too, of course. I think everyone deserves some type of appreciation. As said before, everyone gets my vote.
Last edited by beloved blood at 9:39:52 PM CST on December 28, 2011.
Shinmaru
Baron of Terribad (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 12/28/11 | Reply
Yeah, I do think there is a self-fulfilling prophecy going on here -- or, at least, the seeds of one, since, as you point out, nothing has really started yet. I can see the good intentions in not wanting people's feelings hurt, but honestly, if people have their feelings hurt by what will be, at worst, a silly Internet popularity contest, then that person really should not be coddled. A little perspective never hurt anyone. Besides, if things threatened to get out of control, then I don't doubt our fine crew of mods would cool things down.
Maybe I'm being naive, but I think people here are generally decent folks. I don't think it will devolve into name-calling that easily. And if people just nominate their friends, then so what? That's what people do. We'd like to think that everyone will go through as many submissions as possible to find the best person, but there's so much out there, and plenty of it of decent quality. If the contest spotlights some good artists, then hey, I think that's an admirable enough goal.
Love thy Evangelion.