I definitely understand where you're coming from and I agree :3
The last time I signed into MyO was three years ago. Granted you published this essay a while back so I doubt anyone is going to read my comment... But definitely Seifer Sama was someone I looked up to when I first started on MyO. Since I came back, I've seen a lot has changed. I'm still trying to get used to the new system, hahaha~ :p
Hopefully I get to see some familiar faces around here soon...
I think you are right except that it isn't even a "shred of talent" that people have. This site is all about campaigning now. People, artist, well whoever, all they have to do is create a following, not by artwork but through trade. So many times I've seen the message, "I'll subscribe to you if you subscribe to me". What is that? How can these backdoor deals happen with any merit?
Once a person's campaigning is over and they have their following, they can start submitting crappy art and by the contract of "I'll vote for you if you vote for me" we get unworthy art in the top four slots of the site every time.
Now let me also say that on other occasions there are AMAZING pieces in the top four categories. My above explanation applies only when bad art reigns on the site, which is as often as bad art is made with an appropriate campaigner to back its submission.
Hero of Thyme (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/30/09 | Reply
I actually agree with what you have to say. Being a member for over three years now I too remember how competetive the fanart section use to be. It was hard for artists such as myself... beginners and very bad at what they were doing... but it was still so thrilling when every once in a while your art would be displayed in the top 4.
But now, you have an entire page of top people, and theOtaku's home page now has 4 top pieces instead of the original one (that I always strived to get but never did :/).
With this new voting system I've also noticed something else. The quality of the artwork has weakened. Since it's extremely easy for any popular artist with a shred of talent to get on the first page, people don't have to try as hard. And because of it, I'm seeing stuff on the front page that are... WIPs?.... a floating head? Seriously?
We need the old cut throat voting system to give our artists a boost.
It's great to hear your opinion and how clearly you know what you miss and how well you are able to explain it.
My concern for Version Vibrant is a bit similar in a way. People barely browse through the latest artworks people have submitted, they rather check their backroom and see what their friends and other people's updates are. Furthermore, the people that browse through recent submissions, usually do not comment, they only hug. I miss getting comments from people I do not know.
I wish there was a way to motivate people to comment and browse through the recent drawings. This would also increase the competition and to reduce popularity influence.
Another thing I truly miss is feedback/constructive criticism. It helps you improve greatly. I try to give people feedback myself, but in most cases people don't like getting constructive criticism. That's why I usually point out the things I really like about a drawing, and in cases I know the artist wants feedback, I give feedback.
Little Sayu (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 07/06/09 | Reply
I've read this article over and all of the comments on here multiple times now. This is my 4th time reading this and I've finally decided to stop being lazy and actually comment this article.
I've been on theOtaku since 2006 and I know that's not as long as you and many others on here, but I really agree with this in some ways, and in some ways I don't really know.
I do miss the competitive edge. To me it was really inspiring and it got me to work harder and draw more-or make time to draw more if there wasn't a lot of time. To me, determining the top artists was a really big deal...even if I wasn't a part of the listing, it didn't matter to me because I knew that over time, if I worked hard enough, I'd be able to get there.
The only thing is though..some people have left theOtaku because of this competitive edge. There are some that believe that they aren't good enough and didn't even bother to try getting on that top list, and there were others that were simply sick of not seeing their works on top after countless numbers of submissions. There are others that think that the competitive edge drives people away, rather than invites them because then submitting art would only be about getting votes(or hugs...whatever) and faves. One friend I know stopped being active recently because she was sick of drawing for the sake of keeping up with standards and being pressured to do so...rather than drawing to make people feel happy.
"I know that as a new artist it's hard to compete with some of those amazing artists but I loved it."
I'm sure that a lot of people think the same way that you do. In fact, this probably applies to many new artists nowadays. But the fact is, in the game of competition, if you don't have the heart, passion and drive to want to be on top, then how do you expect to get anywhere and become just like those older, more famous artists? Competition and passion does allow someone to strive harder for their desires, and I think that's one thing about theOtaku that lacks today.
Partly in contribution to the lack of voting/feedback and unstable popularity issues definitely has to be the subscribing option, in my opinion. When someone sees the word "subscriber", it has a much different, more distant connotation from the word "friend". Back in the old days, there was no subscribing option, where an artist would be subscribed to by possibly random people for their work. People just kept watch of certain people's work quietly, and make their voice heard by commenting or voting. It wasn't a competition for how many subscribers someone could get. There are people nowadays that have art that only gets popular for the sake of how many 500+ subscribers or whatever they have that pales in comparison to amazing art like Seifer Sama's and Psyconorika's. It's ridiculous to me..because popularity is different from truly measuring skill.
The categories as well have degraded as well in my opinion. There used to be organization by Artist, Date, Category and Popularity but now it's just whatever's most "Active"/popular and "freshness" over the past 24 hours+?
The new Version Vibrant seems to have caused confusion...and that also caused many people I know to have left.
There are many reasons why I and many other artists draw...but in the past, competition and the desire to come out on top drove those reasons. I don't know what it is that we've lost exactly, but there's an empty hole where it once was.
I very much miss some of the old things from before as well. Thank you so much for bringing this up. I know this is an article from back in 2008 but I'm so glad to have read it and I do hope you read this comment when you get the chance. And again, thank you for the passion you showed in writing this, that's definitely the spirit of a true Otaku right there. ^^
ive been on this site for about 3-4 years now and when version vibrant was released i was angry because i didnt know how to do things anymore!!! i really liked the old version better:( i liked how the voting system worked because it was the best of the BEST that got their artwork up in the daily gallery. ok im not dissing the people that have their work in the daily gallery but, the work that is 'hugged' could be alot better!!! i liked the competitive style! it helped me become a better artist!!! my portfolio has no pics and it doesnt show up that ive been here for 3-4 years because when Version vibrant was released...my account got all screwed up! when i went to change my password it wouldnt take it and so i had to discard my account:( ive lately been looking at the art of people that inspired me to become a better artist. my anime beginning set me off to do realism. the older otaku peoples work was the reason im an artist now. i know alot of people that left this site because of all the reasons you listed. and its good to see that other people agree that the old otaku was better:) (extremely long rant):
It is sad, I don't participate here anymore, I just post work but because I'm not popular I don't think anyone see's my stuff. Oh well times they are a changing
:D I totally understand what you mean. I was here before Version Vibrant and all its changes, and I have to say...there are days that I seriously miss the original O. Though there are some great tech improvements on the new site, but I can't help but believe that some members are practically invisible unless they produce a popular submission. Nowadays, it's more of a popularity contest on the site rather than the potential D:
Although, I do remember on the old site that new submissions could get frontpage time. The wonderful thing about the old site for me was that practically EVERYBODY knew each other. Guestbooks meant so much more before, and now, people only sign your guestbook if you are popular or have favored their work in some way. It really is discouraging...
Alas, that is the true meaning of change. I was indifferent with the arrival of Version Vibrant and took a six-month hiatus from theO. I sprang back out of nowhere for no apparent reason, and I have grown to love the site. There is something special that keeps me logging back in every now and then. It's just sad that some of the site's most talented artists have left the site (Seifer, Cheeki, Irghost) or have been deleted/removed (Skeet 115, what happened?), as did some of my old O friends. :/ It's a real bummer.
Sold my soul (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/22/09 | Reply
I've been here for about 4 years and I agree!
It went from a simple 'do you like this artwork? yes or no' to Votes to ...hugs. Now, hugs sounds sort of lame to me. I mean, hugging? For serious?
I miss the competition. I miss the member board on MyO, and seeing yourself get closer and closer to the top. All the motivation has sort've left me now, I feel like ' oh ok, even if I tried really hard on this piece, it won't matter because basically EVERYTHING and EVERYONE wins on this'. I get no feeling of accomplishment :/
I really do hope they change the 'hug' system (I don't hug artwork in RL LOL). Its waaaay to lenient and just gives everyone a false sense of winning. Blegh.
Last edited by Cherryshock at 5:10:23 PM EDT on March 22, 2009.
While I didn't know how the old voting system worked, I do know that I liked it much better. Back then, all the works that reached front page status were guaranteed fantastic works, even if they came from a relatively obscure member. However, the theOtaku now is different.
I find that since the category of "newest works" was taken from the front page with the opening of VV, very few people actually bother looking past the top four submissions in each category. And since the member subscription feature has come online, theOtaku has, in a sense, become a popularity contest. It's gotten too hard to have the honestly good art recognized. Instead, the people with the most subscribers get front page almost every single time.
And what's worse is the knowledge that you aren't gaining recognition not because you suck, but simply because no one bothers to look at your work. I remember I once had a work that got over 300 views in a day (I fell out of my chair in shock). Now, I get 50 if I'm lucky.
I guess what I'm saying is, theO has come up short on this aspect, and if we aren't careful, the competitive (best!) part of this website's going to be monopolized by a few, very popular, members.
Thank you SomeGuy for adding some Management's perspective to this article. I think that is very important and even though this article can be viewed as a negative I think its very important that both sides be represented.
You comments have inspired an idea. What if a requirement of voting negative was to provide a reason why. I know that won't stop that flaming but perhaps it could slow flaming.
Either way I want to say that I very much appreciate the work that the Otaku staff does. We have seen a community rise from a website and the blossoming features are always something exciting to look forward to. I think that quality of the staff can be seen in their continued dedication to these forums, their appearances at conventions and possibly most importantly the way and grace they handled the Anime Vegas Ordeal. I was truly impressed that an online community would go to such lengths to right the wrongs committed by that horrible person.
I think ultimately what I want from this article is to inspire those old timers and even some of you new otaku to bring back that thrill of creativity and don't be afraid to "hug" and leave a comment.
I will start to re-commit myself to this ideal and I hope you all do as well.
Nice essay, I totally agree.
I hate how the the amount of hugs/votes has declined. How did 200+ votes on a wallpaper become 20+??
And I understand what you mean, I continue to draw soley because of theOtaku, it inspires me to become better at it. Just about every drawing I create is for theO, the benefits of comments and hoping I've improved. I'm no where near your skill but theO definitely needs some more competition. Not just for fanart, every category, walls and e-cards. We'd see the return of plea pictures begging for votes/comments, but the benefits of more competition outway the cons.
I completely agree. I've been here for 4 years as well (5 years this Feb!), and while I ended up neglecting theO towards the latter half of those years to the point where I missed out on the relaunch and events prior, I never completely left. When I came back, I was shocked at the change; it's "fluffier" in every sense of the word. I miss the old artists, and I miss the excitement of getting comments and being conscious of my votes. I'd look at the number of votes and think "how can I get more votes without completely selling out and drawing whatever's most popular?". Granted, I haven't submitted in ages, but this whole thing still has some some extra sweetness mixed in with that "new car smell," and it's almost too sweet. TheO is now walking the fine line between cuddly and vomit-inducing. Vicious is good. Competition is an artist's life. Without it, there is no improvement. The real world does not give 'hugs'.
A while back, I got a devART account after much prodding from a friend, and personally, I think the old otaku was better than dA. DeviantART is very much on the verge of being strictly a popularity contest. The recognition of deserving artists is the only thing keeping it from being as such, because those artists became popular due to the quality of their work, not because they're social butterflies. The old otaku had its popularity contests, and while the ranking system may have had its flaws, the voting system was honest. The new otaku is sleek and interesting, and I do like it, but some elements are beginning to draw some dangerous parallels with dA.
I never found otaku to be a scary place. I find dA terrifying. It so much more far reaching, and there're so many more chances to get on someone's bad side. The old otaku felt like a safe haven. While I didn't visit as often later on, it still felt like home. I want the new otaku to feel like home, too. If we get too swallowed up in a fight for attention over an honest competition of skill, it will cease to be what I came to theOtaku for, which was also the reason why I stayed.
This was an excellent post, man. Very honest, very to the point, never getting offensive about things. I liked that.
I'll just throw in what I feel is the main reason we took away the option of voting someone down:
Far, far too often, we were getting people using the votes not as a means to say whether we felt a work was good or bad, but just because they didn't like a particular person; it was personal. In theory that'd be the case for a lot of voting-based things, but it was especially noticeable here. I definitely know of at least a couple people whom a group of others had issues with, and this person basically got group-downvoted on every piece she made because of that. At that point it's not being competitive, it's just being malicious.
Also, I recall a particular work that many people down-voted and blasted until they got the joke - evidently, irony can be lost on some people. So immediately, angry people feeling offended down-voted them. A day or two later, they see what's happened, feel horrible that they got so mean about the wrong thing, but by that point it's too late: the vote has been cast and it can't be changed.
With the "either vote for it or not", there's less risk of that kind of stuff. That was the major reason for this particular change.
I've been here for about a year, and i still agree whole heartedly. I think there was more of an initative to comment and criticize on the old theOtaku.
I remember posting my fisrt picture, i wanted to see how many votes i could get, but i also wanted to know what i could do better. I remember approaching 50 votes and celebrating. I love the new system, but i miss the votes.
The last thing you talked about, use of the site, is something i can identify with. When i first joined, i posted as much as i could as often as i could, now i think oh its been three weeks and i haven't put anything new up, oh well.
Thank you for this essay. I may not have been here as long, but i can still identify with your points.
As an almost fifth year member, I couldn't agree with you more.
I recall those awesome artists like seifer sama that were like the Artists Hall of Fame here on theO. It was many a dream to have their skills and voting was harsh. We had a thumbs-up-thumbs-down system, which I found really helped as far as feedback. Not everyone comments, so now those who dislike have to leave a comment in order to be heard. That never sat well with me.
Sure, I know that the Bossman just wants to accentuate the positive, but it is harsher on those of us who liked theO before all the current adjustments were made to the system. I like Version Vibrant, really I do, but I don't feel like it is the same for artists anymore.
...'cause come on... I'd rather know five people thought my doodle blew chunks than have no votes at all. All we're doing now is trying to appeal to emotionally-sensitive teenage girls... or that what it seems like at least. It's a shame for things to grow and expand, we need to make sacrifices like this.
I'd like to see the vicious 160 votes per piece come back. ^_^ Thanks for pointing it out, since not everyone here remembers.
One thing I'll add is that the Otaku's voting system is what makes it a unique website from other major art sites like deviant art. I like to collect pageviews and favorites over at Deviant art but I always felt more justified when I received a vote here. I think the voting system is what can bring people back from Deviant art and possibly bring more talent from other sites to join. Being able to say you like something without having to favorite it like on Deviant art is very refreshing and just as exciting.
I think its more evidence to re-adjust the voting system here at Otaku.
I agree with you. TheO has gotten much 'fluffier.' I haven't been here long enough to understand the Highest Rated or Most Popular rankings that The Mask mentioned, but things really have changed.
Why was vote ever changed to hugs? It serves no real purpose...
And as XihearthowlX mentioned the more people who know you the more hugs (*shudders*) you'll get on a picture even if it's a crapsketch. I've noticed this and makes me sad to know that people only hug (*shudders*) a picture because their friend did it. This happened before as well though, a person suddenly appeared and posted referenced linearts of some Bleach Fanart. Each one recieved 20-30 votes just because this person had come to know so many people.
A more recent example would be the stick person KittyKoma did. It rose to the most poplar piece of art of the day in no time. This is probably due to the hundreds of fansheep that run rampant on the site now.
I hardly comment anymore as i have a hard time being kind when i point out mistakes, and risking being flamed to death when not actually seeking to is not high on my priority list. Again results of the fansheep.
I admit, i have no right to complain as i'm not that good an artist, but how can i improve if i don't recieve some good (brutally)honest feedback?
Theotaku has changed over the past few years, the look I like, but the voting system, not so much, I agree with you. When I look at other people's artwork, I notice that there usually isn't a lot of feedback. I remember about three or four years ago when I first discovered theotaku I saw how much feedback artists were getting, recently I have noticed that people don't respond as much as they used to. I think you're right. this whole system of hugging just doesn't seem to have same effect as the older one. Its a bit too fluffy
I really agree with this.
It really is depressing when you have worked really hard on something, submit it on here, then the next day you discover only 70 or so people have veiwed the art, and you've only recived 16 hugs/votes.
As for me, I haven't been inspired to submit on here for that very reason. I start drawing something, and half way through I just think why bother. Nobody's going to really look at this.
Now, this is going into a totally different rant, but,
It's starting to seem like it's not about quality of art, but who you are and how many 'subscribers' you have. I have seen some amazing artists out there who deserve way more gratification than they have recived, and vice versa, artists who get all the gratification on an a peice of art that took them maybe thirty minutes to create, because so many people know them.
While the old site DID inspire some competition,there were some definite flaws with the ratings. Like you said, the Highest rated could basically be achieved by anyone that had a 100%, no matter how many articles they may have had. And while I do somewhat agree with you on the Most Popular, I think it was still a good system, because while being known will help, if you wrote something that a lot of people were interested in, it was reflected well.
So I agree that it would be really nice to see a new, updated and improved system, full with several different styles of ratings, all of which would give a fair representation in their listings.
Like, Adam just implemented the Worlds, and it seems to be very well done and in-depth. So now all we have to do is hope that he continues that and applies it to the other sections (*hoping very much so for the articles section...*).
Master of Kittehs (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
oh wow, i totally agree i miss the competition and i agree this website has become 'fluffier' maybe you should ask adam about voting and stuff and see what he has to say ^^
but i love ur enthusiasm great essay, i totally agree with ya
NOTE: I'm sorry for this extremely long comment. My fingers simply had to type everything I wanted to say.
You're right. The old days were pretty fun due to its competitive nature. And as they say, it is through competition that we unleash our fullest potential. Plus, feedback was so rich during those days, so we were much more motivated to create our works back then.
But as far as the old rating system goes, I don't miss it that much. Yes, I miss the fact that we get to know how much people liked our artwork, since it was a percentage-based Yes-or-No format, and can motivate us to do better next time. What I don't miss is the ranking.
As you said, the member ranking made us aspire and hope for that day when we can see our own usernames in that list. I had that aspiration too, until I discovered a flaw that I thought was irritating and made me consider the whole "competitive theOtaku" pointless.
If you can remember, ranking was based on two categories: Highest Rated and Most Popular. Most Popular had a slight flaw in that you're more likely to be a part of that list if you know a lot of people or if many people know you. After all, it's the votes that are counted here. Therefore, it poses a risk to the aesthetic value of the artworks itself. But then again, those who ranked in this category certainly did deserve to be in that list if you are going to base it on their actual works, so it's not too much of a problem.
Highest Rated, however, was different. I aspired for this list in the Articles section (now known as Fan Words) because I know that I can't be part of the Most Popular list since I did not have that many ideas for articles back then. (Note: There was no fiction then, and subjects were also limited to anime and video games, unlike today.) When I clicked on one user who happened to be in the list, my heart sank. He/She just wrote her first article and he/she is now in the list because it got a 100% rating. I can understand if it had a considerable number of votes, but I learned that his/her work only got 5 votes, and now he/she is on the list. There were some other users too who made it in the list simply because they were 100% in their only article, yet was voted upon by a very small fraction of the community. Yes, their works might have been really good, but to end up in that list for an article with 5 all-positive votes just didn't seem right to me.
That made me realize that it was no use aspiring for that list anyway. I already received less-than-100-percent ratings from the many people who read my articles. (Note: It's articles, a plural noun.) Even though more people liked my works than the works of some of those who were in the list, I could never make it to that list because I wasn't 100%.
(Example: Sometime on February 2006, my articles got an 85% general rating, with 142 positive votes out of 167. On that same period, one of the members in the list had a 100% rating, with 5 positive votes out of 5. You be the judge.)
If there's going to be a revival of this competitive theOtaku, it must make sure that it would be more successful at determining who is the best in this community, and not simply because he/she got 100%. If they can't do that, then Hugs are fine for me.
P.S. If you know how to use the Wayback Machine in http://www.archive.org, you can try reviewing the member ranking list of the different websites in theOtaku. This is also where I got my info for my comparisons at the top.
Last edited by The Mask at 10:00:48 AM EDT on October 17, 2008.
I do miss the old artist like Seifer Sama. There was only one person that really got under my skin and made me want to draw something that day to challenge her. But she doesn't post here anymore or much on any site I have been able to find.
I definetly used to get more feedback. Now I pretty much have to poke people to get any sort of feedback. I can understand wanting to make an encourage website that doesn't shot people down for trying but that doesn't work if people don't say anything to help each other!
I miss comments.
The view count per vote is different. And sometimes its just said to see how many people look at something now but don't even 'hug' it. They might have responded better to the simple yes or no question for a vote.
I know exactly what you mean. On the old theOtaku, I had written the most articles, partially due to the fact there it was so much fun to be competitive, and to try to write something that would get tons of votes! I was aiming for those top spots, and eventually I got there. A lot of it was due to the fact that the competition drove me on!
So yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I do like that idea of Otaku Legends vs each other, and the same for other titles. You should tell Adam about that, as it really is a plausible idea.
Music Fairy (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
You're so passionate! And that is lovely to read about. You make a really clear statement here - but I guess that I haven't been on the old Otaku long enough to really be able to grasp what you're talking about. Also, I'm not such a competitive person as you are. But I agree with you that it's always good to challenge yourself and learn from it.
Demonsprite
Senior Otaku | Posted 09/22/10 | Reply
I definitely understand where you're coming from and I agree :3
The last time I signed into MyO was three years ago. Granted you published this essay a while back so I doubt anyone is going to read my comment... But definitely Seifer Sama was someone I looked up to when I first started on MyO. Since I came back, I've seen a lot has changed. I'm still trying to get used to the new system, hahaha~ :p
Hopefully I get to see some familiar faces around here soon...
spacecowboytv
Otaku Eternal | Posted 10/30/09 | Reply
@i.luv.kiba:
I think you are right except that it isn't even a "shred of talent" that people have. This site is all about campaigning now. People, artist, well whoever, all they have to do is create a following, not by artwork but through trade. So many times I've seen the message, "I'll subscribe to you if you subscribe to me". What is that? How can these backdoor deals happen with any merit?
Once a person's campaigning is over and they have their following, they can start submitting crappy art and by the contract of "I'll vote for you if you vote for me" we get unworthy art in the top four slots of the site every time.
Now let me also say that on other occasions there are AMAZING pieces in the top four categories. My above explanation applies only when bad art reigns on the site, which is as often as bad art is made with an appropriate campaigner to back its submission.
i.luv.kiba
Hero of Thyme (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/30/09 | Reply
I actually agree with what you have to say. Being a member for over three years now I too remember how competetive the fanart section use to be. It was hard for artists such as myself... beginners and very bad at what they were doing... but it was still so thrilling when every once in a while your art would be displayed in the top 4.
But now, you have an entire page of top people, and theOtaku's home page now has 4 top pieces instead of the original one (that I always strived to get but never did :/).
With this new voting system I've also noticed something else. The quality of the artwork has weakened. Since it's extremely easy for any popular artist with a shred of talent to get on the first page, people don't have to try as hard. And because of it, I'm seeing stuff on the front page that are... WIPs?.... a floating head? Seriously?
We need the old cut throat voting system to give our artists a boost.
~Colleen
Enslaving the world, one JRocker at a time.
just.me
DragonGirl (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 07/06/09 | Reply
It's great to hear your opinion and how clearly you know what you miss and how well you are able to explain it.
My concern for Version Vibrant is a bit similar in a way. People barely browse through the latest artworks people have submitted, they rather check their backroom and see what their friends and other people's updates are. Furthermore, the people that browse through recent submissions, usually do not comment, they only hug. I miss getting comments from people I do not know.
I wish there was a way to motivate people to comment and browse through the recent drawings. This would also increase the competition and to reduce popularity influence.
Another thing I truly miss is feedback/constructive criticism. It helps you improve greatly. I try to give people feedback myself, but in most cases people don't like getting constructive criticism. That's why I usually point out the things I really like about a drawing, and in cases I know the artist wants feedback, I give feedback.
aragorn1014
Little Sayu (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 07/06/09 | Reply
I've read this article over and all of the comments on here multiple times now. This is my 4th time reading this and I've finally decided to stop being lazy and actually comment this article.
I've been on theOtaku since 2006 and I know that's not as long as you and many others on here, but I really agree with this in some ways, and in some ways I don't really know.
I do miss the competitive edge. To me it was really inspiring and it got me to work harder and draw more-or make time to draw more if there wasn't a lot of time. To me, determining the top artists was a really big deal...even if I wasn't a part of the listing, it didn't matter to me because I knew that over time, if I worked hard enough, I'd be able to get there.
The only thing is though..some people have left theOtaku because of this competitive edge. There are some that believe that they aren't good enough and didn't even bother to try getting on that top list, and there were others that were simply sick of not seeing their works on top after countless numbers of submissions. There are others that think that the competitive edge drives people away, rather than invites them because then submitting art would only be about getting votes(or hugs...whatever) and faves. One friend I know stopped being active recently because she was sick of drawing for the sake of keeping up with standards and being pressured to do so...rather than drawing to make people feel happy.
"I know that as a new artist it's hard to compete with some of those amazing artists but I loved it."
I'm sure that a lot of people think the same way that you do. In fact, this probably applies to many new artists nowadays. But the fact is, in the game of competition, if you don't have the heart, passion and drive to want to be on top, then how do you expect to get anywhere and become just like those older, more famous artists? Competition and passion does allow someone to strive harder for their desires, and I think that's one thing about theOtaku that lacks today.
Partly in contribution to the lack of voting/feedback and unstable popularity issues definitely has to be the subscribing option, in my opinion. When someone sees the word "subscriber", it has a much different, more distant connotation from the word "friend". Back in the old days, there was no subscribing option, where an artist would be subscribed to by possibly random people for their work. People just kept watch of certain people's work quietly, and make their voice heard by commenting or voting. It wasn't a competition for how many subscribers someone could get. There are people nowadays that have art that only gets popular for the sake of how many 500+ subscribers or whatever they have that pales in comparison to amazing art like Seifer Sama's and Psyconorika's. It's ridiculous to me..because popularity is different from truly measuring skill.
The categories as well have degraded as well in my opinion. There used to be organization by Artist, Date, Category and Popularity but now it's just whatever's most "Active"/popular and "freshness" over the past 24 hours+?
The new Version Vibrant seems to have caused confusion...and that also caused many people I know to have left.
There are many reasons why I and many other artists draw...but in the past, competition and the desire to come out on top drove those reasons. I don't know what it is that we've lost exactly, but there's an empty hole where it once was.
I very much miss some of the old things from before as well. Thank you so much for bringing this up. I know this is an article from back in 2008 but I'm so glad to have read it and I do hope you read this comment when you get the chance. And again, thank you for the passion you showed in writing this, that's definitely the spirit of a true Otaku right there. ^^
hiding2survive
Otakuite+ | Posted 06/19/09 | Reply
ive been on this site for about 3-4 years now and when version vibrant was released i was angry because i didnt know how to do things anymore!!! i really liked the old version better:( i liked how the voting system worked because it was the best of the BEST that got their artwork up in the daily gallery. ok im not dissing the people that have their work in the daily gallery but, the work that is 'hugged' could be alot better!!! i liked the competitive style! it helped me become a better artist!!! my portfolio has no pics and it doesnt show up that ive been here for 3-4 years because when Version vibrant was released...my account got all screwed up! when i went to change my password it wouldnt take it and so i had to discard my account:( ive lately been looking at the art of people that inspired me to become a better artist. my anime beginning set me off to do realism. the older otaku peoples work was the reason im an artist now. i know alot of people that left this site because of all the reasons you listed. and its good to see that other people agree that the old otaku was better:) (extremely long rant):
spacecowboytv
Otaku Eternal | Posted 03/30/09 | Reply
@kugen:
aww thank you!
kugen
Grand Otaku | Posted 03/30/09 | Reply
@spacecowboytv:
Heh, but I check out your DeviantArt. Your work is still as awesome as ever. It's like everyone's moved to DA.
~kugen
spacecowboytv
Otaku Eternal | Posted 03/30/09 | Reply
@kugen:
It is sad, I don't participate here anymore, I just post work but because I'm not popular I don't think anyone see's my stuff. Oh well times they are a changing
kugen
Grand Otaku | Posted 03/28/09 | Reply
:D I totally understand what you mean. I was here before Version Vibrant and all its changes, and I have to say...there are days that I seriously miss the original O. Though there are some great tech improvements on the new site, but I can't help but believe that some members are practically invisible unless they produce a popular submission. Nowadays, it's more of a popularity contest on the site rather than the potential D:
Although, I do remember on the old site that new submissions could get frontpage time. The wonderful thing about the old site for me was that practically EVERYBODY knew each other. Guestbooks meant so much more before, and now, people only sign your guestbook if you are popular or have favored their work in some way. It really is discouraging...
Alas, that is the true meaning of change. I was indifferent with the arrival of Version Vibrant and took a six-month hiatus from theO. I sprang back out of nowhere for no apparent reason, and I have grown to love the site. There is something special that keeps me logging back in every now and then. It's just sad that some of the site's most talented artists have left the site (Seifer, Cheeki, Irghost) or have been deleted/removed (Skeet 115, what happened?), as did some of my old O friends. :/ It's a real bummer.
It's a great essay, so I hugged and faved it.
~kugen
Cherryshock
Sold my soul (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 03/22/09 | Reply
I've been here for about 4 years and I agree!
It went from a simple 'do you like this artwork? yes or no' to Votes to ...hugs. Now, hugs sounds sort of lame to me. I mean, hugging? For serious?
I miss the competition. I miss the member board on MyO, and seeing yourself get closer and closer to the top. All the motivation has sort've left me now, I feel like ' oh ok, even if I tried really hard on this piece, it won't matter because basically EVERYTHING and EVERYONE wins on this'. I get no feeling of accomplishment :/
I really do hope they change the 'hug' system (I don't hug artwork in RL LOL). Its waaaay to lenient and just gives everyone a false sense of winning. Blegh.
Last edited by Cherryshock at 5:10:23 PM EDT on March 22, 2009.
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 10/18/08 | Reply
@spacecowboytv:
Oh, dude, I totally hope you can inspire some of the old-timers. That would be absolutely shiny.
Anyway, I'm sure I'm probably not the only team member that has read this. Either way, it'll give us something fun to talk about later.
KCHuang
Senior Otaku+ | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
While I didn't know how the old voting system worked, I do know that I liked it much better. Back then, all the works that reached front page status were guaranteed fantastic works, even if they came from a relatively obscure member. However, the theOtaku now is different.
I find that since the category of "newest works" was taken from the front page with the opening of VV, very few people actually bother looking past the top four submissions in each category. And since the member subscription feature has come online, theOtaku has, in a sense, become a popularity contest. It's gotten too hard to have the honestly good art recognized. Instead, the people with the most subscribers get front page almost every single time.
And what's worse is the knowledge that you aren't gaining recognition not because you suck, but simply because no one bothers to look at your work. I remember I once had a work that got over 300 views in a day (I fell out of my chair in shock). Now, I get 50 if I'm lucky.
I guess what I'm saying is, theO has come up short on this aspect, and if we aren't careful, the competitive (best!) part of this website's going to be monopolized by a few, very popular, members.
spacecowboytv
Otaku Eternal | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
@SomeGuy:
Thank you SomeGuy for adding some Management's perspective to this article. I think that is very important and even though this article can be viewed as a negative I think its very important that both sides be represented.
You comments have inspired an idea. What if a requirement of voting negative was to provide a reason why. I know that won't stop that flaming but perhaps it could slow flaming.
Either way I want to say that I very much appreciate the work that the Otaku staff does. We have seen a community rise from a website and the blossoming features are always something exciting to look forward to. I think that quality of the staff can be seen in their continued dedication to these forums, their appearances at conventions and possibly most importantly the way and grace they handled the Anime Vegas Ordeal. I was truly impressed that an online community would go to such lengths to right the wrongs committed by that horrible person.
I think ultimately what I want from this article is to inspire those old timers and even some of you new otaku to bring back that thrill of creativity and don't be afraid to "hug" and leave a comment.
I will start to re-commit myself to this ideal and I hope you all do as well.
Shi Bum Bumm
Otaku Eternal | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
Nice essay, I totally agree.
I hate how the the amount of hugs/votes has declined. How did 200+ votes on a wallpaper become 20+??
And I understand what you mean, I continue to draw soley because of theOtaku, it inspires me to become better at it. Just about every drawing I create is for theO, the benefits of comments and hoping I've improved. I'm no where near your skill but theO definitely needs some more competition. Not just for fanart, every category, walls and e-cards. We'd see the return of plea pictures begging for votes/comments, but the benefits of more competition outway the cons.
Great essay it was much needed.
wolf isis
Otaku Legend | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
I completely agree. I've been here for 4 years as well (5 years this Feb!), and while I ended up neglecting theO towards the latter half of those years to the point where I missed out on the relaunch and events prior, I never completely left. When I came back, I was shocked at the change; it's "fluffier" in every sense of the word. I miss the old artists, and I miss the excitement of getting comments and being conscious of my votes. I'd look at the number of votes and think "how can I get more votes without completely selling out and drawing whatever's most popular?". Granted, I haven't submitted in ages, but this whole thing still has some some extra sweetness mixed in with that "new car smell," and it's almost too sweet. TheO is now walking the fine line between cuddly and vomit-inducing. Vicious is good. Competition is an artist's life. Without it, there is no improvement. The real world does not give 'hugs'.
A while back, I got a devART account after much prodding from a friend, and personally, I think the old otaku was better than dA. DeviantART is very much on the verge of being strictly a popularity contest. The recognition of deserving artists is the only thing keeping it from being as such, because those artists became popular due to the quality of their work, not because they're social butterflies. The old otaku had its popularity contests, and while the ranking system may have had its flaws, the voting system was honest. The new otaku is sleek and interesting, and I do like it, but some elements are beginning to draw some dangerous parallels with dA.
I never found otaku to be a scary place. I find dA terrifying. It so much more far reaching, and there're so many more chances to get on someone's bad side. The old otaku felt like a safe haven. While I didn't visit as often later on, it still felt like home. I want the new otaku to feel like home, too. If we get too swallowed up in a fight for attention over an honest competition of skill, it will cease to be what I came to theOtaku for, which was also the reason why I stayed.
SomeGuy
Canadian Liaison (Team) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
This was an excellent post, man. Very honest, very to the point, never getting offensive about things. I liked that.
I'll just throw in what I feel is the main reason we took away the option of voting someone down:
Far, far too often, we were getting people using the votes not as a means to say whether we felt a work was good or bad, but just because they didn't like a particular person; it was personal. In theory that'd be the case for a lot of voting-based things, but it was especially noticeable here. I definitely know of at least a couple people whom a group of others had issues with, and this person basically got group-downvoted on every piece she made because of that. At that point it's not being competitive, it's just being malicious.
Also, I recall a particular work that many people down-voted and blasted until they got the joke - evidently, irony can be lost on some people. So immediately, angry people feeling offended down-voted them. A day or two later, they see what's happened, feel horrible that they got so mean about the wrong thing, but by that point it's too late: the vote has been cast and it can't be changed.
With the "either vote for it or not", there's less risk of that kind of stuff. That was the major reason for this particular change.
Mizuki-Air
Otakuite++ | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
I've been here for about a year, and i still agree whole heartedly. I think there was more of an initative to comment and criticize on the old theOtaku.
I remember posting my fisrt picture, i wanted to see how many votes i could get, but i also wanted to know what i could do better. I remember approaching 50 votes and celebrating. I love the new system, but i miss the votes.
The last thing you talked about, use of the site, is something i can identify with. When i first joined, i posted as much as i could as often as i could, now i think oh its been three weeks and i haven't put anything new up, oh well.
Thank you for this essay. I may not have been here as long, but i can still identify with your points.
Mizuki-Air
Nehszriah
Hits Self With Axe (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
As an almost fifth year member, I couldn't agree with you more.
I recall those awesome artists like seifer sama that were like the Artists Hall of Fame here on theO. It was many a dream to have their skills and voting was harsh. We had a thumbs-up-thumbs-down system, which I found really helped as far as feedback. Not everyone comments, so now those who dislike have to leave a comment in order to be heard. That never sat well with me.
Sure, I know that the Bossman just wants to accentuate the positive, but it is harsher on those of us who liked theO before all the current adjustments were made to the system. I like Version Vibrant, really I do, but I don't feel like it is the same for artists anymore.
...'cause come on... I'd rather know five people thought my doodle blew chunks than have no votes at all. All we're doing now is trying to appeal to emotionally-sensitive teenage girls... or that what it seems like at least. It's a shame for things to grow and expand, we need to make sacrifices like this.
I'd like to see the vicious 160 votes per piece come back. ^_^ Thanks for pointing it out, since not everyone here remembers.
*wonders how many people really do remember*
Be true, be you and of course, be otaku.
spacecowboytv
Otaku Eternal | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
One thing I'll add is that the Otaku's voting system is what makes it a unique website from other major art sites like deviant art. I like to collect pageviews and favorites over at Deviant art but I always felt more justified when I received a vote here. I think the voting system is what can bring people back from Deviant art and possibly bring more talent from other sites to join. Being able to say you like something without having to favorite it like on Deviant art is very refreshing and just as exciting.
I think its more evidence to re-adjust the voting system here at Otaku.
Thank you all for your comments so far as well.
Kirobug
SuperBum (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
I agree with you. TheO has gotten much 'fluffier.' I haven't been here long enough to understand the Highest Rated or Most Popular rankings that The Mask mentioned, but things really have changed.
Why was vote ever changed to hugs? It serves no real purpose...
And as XihearthowlX mentioned the more people who know you the more hugs (*shudders*) you'll get on a picture even if it's a crapsketch. I've noticed this and makes me sad to know that people only hug (*shudders*) a picture because their friend did it. This happened before as well though, a person suddenly appeared and posted referenced linearts of some Bleach Fanart. Each one recieved 20-30 votes just because this person had come to know so many people.
A more recent example would be the stick person KittyKoma did. It rose to the most poplar piece of art of the day in no time. This is probably due to the hundreds of fansheep that run rampant on the site now.
I hardly comment anymore as i have a hard time being kind when i point out mistakes, and risking being flamed to death when not actually seeking to is not high on my priority list. Again results of the fansheep.
I admit, i have no right to complain as i'm not that good an artist, but how can i improve if i don't recieve some good (brutally)honest feedback?
Anuska23
Otaku Legend | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
Theotaku has changed over the past few years, the look I like, but the voting system, not so much, I agree with you. When I look at other people's artwork, I notice that there usually isn't a lot of feedback. I remember about three or four years ago when I first discovered theotaku I saw how much feedback artists were getting, recently I have noticed that people don't respond as much as they used to. I think you're right. this whole system of hugging just doesn't seem to have same effect as the older one. Its a bit too fluffy
XihearthowlX
Otaku Eternal | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
I really agree with this.
It really is depressing when you have worked really hard on something, submit it on here, then the next day you discover only 70 or so people have veiwed the art, and you've only recived 16 hugs/votes.
As for me, I haven't been inspired to submit on here for that very reason. I start drawing something, and half way through I just think why bother. Nobody's going to really look at this.
Now, this is going into a totally different rant, but,
It's starting to seem like it's not about quality of art, but who you are and how many 'subscribers' you have. I have seen some amazing artists out there who deserve way more gratification than they have recived, and vice versa, artists who get all the gratification on an a peice of art that took them maybe thirty minutes to create, because so many people know them.
Kastom
Otaku Princess | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
@The Mask:
Thinking on what you said, I agree with you.
While the old site DID inspire some competition,there were some definite flaws with the ratings. Like you said, the Highest rated could basically be achieved by anyone that had a 100%, no matter how many articles they may have had. And while I do somewhat agree with you on the Most Popular, I think it was still a good system, because while being known will help, if you wrote something that a lot of people were interested in, it was reflected well.
So I agree that it would be really nice to see a new, updated and improved system, full with several different styles of ratings, all of which would give a fair representation in their listings.
Like, Adam just implemented the Worlds, and it seems to be very well done and in-depth. So now all we have to do is hope that he continues that and applies it to the other sections (*hoping very much so for the articles section...*).
I'd rather see in shades of gray.
MewMew
Master of Kittehs (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
oh wow, i totally agree i miss the competition and i agree this website has become 'fluffier' maybe you should ask adam about voting and stuff and see what he has to say ^^
but i love ur enthusiasm great essay, i totally agree with ya
The Mask
Detective Mask (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
NOTE: I'm sorry for this extremely long comment. My fingers simply had to type everything I wanted to say.
You're right. The old days were pretty fun due to its competitive nature. And as they say, it is through competition that we unleash our fullest potential. Plus, feedback was so rich during those days, so we were much more motivated to create our works back then.
But as far as the old rating system goes, I don't miss it that much. Yes, I miss the fact that we get to know how much people liked our artwork, since it was a percentage-based Yes-or-No format, and can motivate us to do better next time. What I don't miss is the ranking.
As you said, the member ranking made us aspire and hope for that day when we can see our own usernames in that list. I had that aspiration too, until I discovered a flaw that I thought was irritating and made me consider the whole "competitive theOtaku" pointless.
If you can remember, ranking was based on two categories: Highest Rated and Most Popular. Most Popular had a slight flaw in that you're more likely to be a part of that list if you know a lot of people or if many people know you. After all, it's the votes that are counted here. Therefore, it poses a risk to the aesthetic value of the artworks itself. But then again, those who ranked in this category certainly did deserve to be in that list if you are going to base it on their actual works, so it's not too much of a problem.
Highest Rated, however, was different. I aspired for this list in the Articles section (now known as Fan Words) because I know that I can't be part of the Most Popular list since I did not have that many ideas for articles back then. (Note: There was no fiction then, and subjects were also limited to anime and video games, unlike today.) When I clicked on one user who happened to be in the list, my heart sank. He/She just wrote her first article and he/she is now in the list because it got a 100% rating. I can understand if it had a considerable number of votes, but I learned that his/her work only got 5 votes, and now he/she is on the list. There were some other users too who made it in the list simply because they were 100% in their only article, yet was voted upon by a very small fraction of the community. Yes, their works might have been really good, but to end up in that list for an article with 5 all-positive votes just didn't seem right to me.
That made me realize that it was no use aspiring for that list anyway. I already received less-than-100-percent ratings from the many people who read my articles. (Note: It's articles, a plural noun.) Even though more people liked my works than the works of some of those who were in the list, I could never make it to that list because I wasn't 100%.
(Example: Sometime on February 2006, my articles got an 85% general rating, with 142 positive votes out of 167. On that same period, one of the members in the list had a 100% rating, with 5 positive votes out of 5. You be the judge.)
If there's going to be a revival of this competitive theOtaku, it must make sure that it would be more successful at determining who is the best in this community, and not simply because he/she got 100%. If they can't do that, then Hugs are fine for me.
P.S. If you know how to use the Wayback Machine in http://www.archive.org, you can try reviewing the member ranking list of the different websites in theOtaku. This is also where I got my info for my comparisons at the top.
Last edited by The Mask at 10:00:48 AM EDT on October 17, 2008.
"Students, be ambitious!"
blackwings
Lady-Blackwings (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
I do miss the old artist like Seifer Sama. There was only one person that really got under my skin and made me want to draw something that day to challenge her. But she doesn't post here anymore or much on any site I have been able to find.
I definetly used to get more feedback. Now I pretty much have to poke people to get any sort of feedback. I can understand wanting to make an encourage website that doesn't shot people down for trying but that doesn't work if people don't say anything to help each other!
I miss comments.
The view count per vote is different. And sometimes its just said to see how many people look at something now but don't even 'hug' it. They might have responded better to the simple yes or no question for a vote.
I'm never sure about people these days.
Kastom
Otaku Princess | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
I know exactly what you mean. On the old theOtaku, I had written the most articles, partially due to the fact there it was so much fun to be competitive, and to try to write something that would get tons of votes! I was aiming for those top spots, and eventually I got there. A lot of it was due to the fact that the competition drove me on!
So yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
I do like that idea of Otaku Legends vs each other, and the same for other titles. You should tell Adam about that, as it really is a plausible idea.
I'd rather see in shades of gray.
SaxGirl
Music Fairy (Otaku Eternal) | Posted 10/17/08 | Reply
You're so passionate! And that is lovely to read about. You make a really clear statement here - but I guess that I haven't been on the old Otaku long enough to really be able to grasp what you're talking about. Also, I'm not such a competitive person as you are. But I agree with you that it's always good to challenge yourself and learn from it.
~SG