@Afterglow:

[[Oh, nah... you're just trying to point out holes in my characters that I should consider looking back at? That's what I think you're doing when you do this. xD; & Harry Potter says okay. N87|]]

I do think that some people write poetry such as that because they think they have discovered something that is new and original, and therefore somehow (abstractly) significant to the world. That's how Vanity Fanfare writes. On a side note, Vanity Fanfare's poetry isn't sincere, either; she's not particularly unhappy, and her life (or death, 'cause she's a reaper?) is going just fine... but she writes dark, gory, depressing poetry anyway.
Also, I don't think that's how everyone who writes dark poetry writes--some people just need to vent, and aren't trying to say something significant to humanity. And especially about the last thing--I really don't know anyone who writes dark poetry when they're feeling content. But I do know people who write exaggerated forms of their emotions in poetry.
I also think that most people write with the intention of persuading someone to think a certain way, or to adopt their point of view. (Not quite sure if that point is relevant, but I'll put that out there.)

Oh, and yeah, the fabricated thing is basically what I was going for with Vanity Fanfare. Like I said, she's not particularly unhappy. xD YOU KNOW, A BIG CLIMAX THING WITH HER STORY COULD BE WHEN SHE WRITES A SINCERE POEM......
That's such a nice poem though...! *^* It wasn't really clicking with me the first time, but when I read it the second time it sounded really cool. It's neat how little observations like that can make a nice poem.
Hahahahahaha something fabricated, eh... xD IT'S SO DRAMATIC! I didn't catch that it was Kirk and Spock when I started reading it. I thought it was a teenage girl... xD;;;
Also, that's not how I think of them at all.

Is coo', I know what you were going for. :V

Haha, true... I think what I was mainly trying to say is that she makes a conclusion that doesn't follow from what she's focusing on. So yeah, bad reasoning.

It's okay, that happens to me AWLE ZEH TEIM. Like now. xD

@moonlit dream:

[[HAHA it's okay, I feel like you might think the same thing about me... not with comment lengths, but with replies in general. Meep. But no, we're just having a conversation. I like it. B) ]]

I also see what you mean, though I think the "significance to humanity" thing is abstract. Do you think people write poetry like that because they think it is significant to humanity? I think those poems that seem whiny/dark/gory/blah idk something are a reflection of the person who's writing the poem rather than a lesson for humanity. Like, even if the person's intention was to write a story that influences all of humanity and the like, it's really more of a reflection of the person who's having those opinions, and it's important to know how that person feels.

And yyeeettt there are those people who will write things that are unnecessarily graphic or they're fabricated.
(OKAY SO I WAS LOOKING ON DA FOR A POEM TO EXEMPLIFY WHAT I WAS GOING TO TALK ABOUT BUT WHEN I CLICKED ON THIS POEM IT WAS BEAUTIFUL: clickieclick I am in love. But not really. But it's very nice. I even left a nonsensical comment, haha.)
So, for a real example: Hahahaha
^I am just kidding about that example. I only chose it to annoy you.

Okay now I can't find any poetry that I think is irredeemably annoying. So forget that.

Anyways, so you seem to have a problem with VF's logic, not her motives. She sees the meaning behind something, but infers it from incorrect signs. Well, she just needs a lesson on how to read signs and symbols or something, hahaha.

Also I probably wrote this comment over the course of 20 minutes so I don't really know what I was trying to say. . . . .

@Afterglow:

[[I'm pretty sure I always seem like I'm trying to one-up you when I send you these long comments, but IT'S NOT TRUE!! I'm just not sure if I'm being clear, so the comment just gets longer and longer...........]]

Oh, I see what you're saying. I actually do agree with you there on that example. And a poem about pretty grass does have the meaning of evoking a feeling of freshness. I also think meanings on a personal level do exist, and to that particular person it is important. I think I said somewhere that "aestheticism would be fine if that was what she was trying to portray," and what you've provided is an example of that idea. The poem about grass claims to be significant because it evokes feelings of freshness. And in that sense, it is meaningful.

Although, in my previous posts I intended "meaningful" to mean "significant to humanity". (A little pompous, but whatever. xD;) I'll use that term from here on. Also, I wasn't exactly talking about poems that are "deep for sake of being deep", but being "significant to humanity because it has a certain look to it".

Here are some examples of what I was trying to get at initially. I'll use this picture (because it's easier, even though it's not as neutral as your grass example) as the example. The 1st statement will be something that Vanity Fanfare (VF) says. The 2nd statement will be what I think could be said. The observation is underlined.

Case 1
1) The picture has blood. Therefore, it is significant to humanity. (This is faulty because VF does not give a specific significance, or reasons as to why blood = significance to humanity.)
2) The picture has blood. Therefore, it evokes feelings of scariness/creepiness. (This is plausible because blood tends to make people uncomfortable. This is what I meant by "portraying aestheticism as aestheticism.")

Case 2
1) This picture suggests that for a depressed person, forcing a smile is as painful as a wound. This is because her mouth is bloody. (This is faulty because a bloody mouth doesn't necessarily mean anything about forcing a smile. VF tries to use aesthetic observation to support claims significant to humanity.)
2) This picture suggests that for a depressed person, forcing a smile is as painful as a wound. This is because the smile on the girls face is portrayed in the form of a knife wound. (This is plausible if the joker smile is meant to symbolize a depressed person's smile.)

And... idk, I talk a lot. I wrote this all out because I don't think I was saying clearly earlier what I meant by the statement.

@moonlit dream:

Haha I was just wondering. I mean personally, I think something can be meaningful because of its aesthetics. Like a poem about grass can be meaningful not because it's political or environmentalist or anything like that, but because it evokes a feeling of freshness (weird example). So I know what you mean when you're talking about poetry that's "deep for the sake of being deep" (I think I know what poems you had in mind when you wrote that part of your character), but at the same time I don't think it can be discounted because it did mean something to someone. <Italics are cool.

And writing this response to you was good for me because I was partially trying to convince myself why that kind of poetry is meaningful, haha. And it is ridiculous, to an extent, because a person publishes these things online and should maybe expect that people will not understand where the poetry is coming from, but at the same time it is a real person's feelings.

@Afterglow:

Well, I personally think it's faulty. Can you tell me what you're getting at, since I can't see it on my own?

Aestheticism would be fine if that's what she was trying to portray, but instead she's claiming something has deep meaning because it's aesthetically appealing... which is a little faulty.

^OR IS IT FAULTY?????????? That iz the queshtun.

@Wakusei Aoshi:

Haha! xD Aw, too bad it was taking her so long... essays take longer to write than conversational things, anyway.

You haven't been called a hipster? xD It happens to me because I'm pretty open about my deliberate avoidance of pop culture... (I-i just don't think pop culture is very entertaining! Why should I watch popular videos if they're not in my realm of entertainment? ;u;) It might happen to you, too. >:D

Hm... about judging something by whether or not it's entertaining/etc... I usually see people doing this with books we have to read for school. xD; Most of the people at my school disliked books like Lord of the Flies and A Tale of Two Cities because they were boring. Although, some people also disliked them because they didn't agree with their message. I think it's okay to judge something with meaning if you've considered the meaning, and decide you don't agree with it. Or something. Idk what I'm getting at anymore. xD But yeah, I can understand that pet peeve of yours.

@moonlit dream:

Ohohoho...monster posts! XD My friend had to write a 1 page essay and it was taking her hours and my post just then was about the same length as her essay and I wrote it in maybe 5 minutes...'orz She was highly impressed (this from a non-native English speaker, by the way, that's why 1 page was so challenging for her).

Haha! XD I'm glad we agree on these things! XD

I never thought about that..yeah...labels are there for the outsider to understand, not the insider. Since people can't understand what you feel they need to make a comparison which includes an easy label.

That's strange that you are described as hipster! I don't think I've ever been called a hipster even though I probably am! XD

Yeah, lazy are it totes fine, just when somebody criticizes it don't get pissed at them. People should know better.

Haha! XD Philosophy is fun! It's fun 'cause I can make up as much stuff as I want as long as I support it! ;D It's like creative writing...

Same thing about creative writing and art...gotta put some meaning into it. The reason why things become art is not because they look pretty, but because they have meaning that resonates with humanity. I just had a huge disagreement with my friend about something like this because she was only judging things based on if they were pretty or entertaining...I don't know if she should do that or not...I feel like it's wrong to do that, but I couldn't explain to her why. Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine...Don't judge something with meaning just because you don't want to think about the meaning.

And I like long posts~! :D

@Wakusei Aoshi:

Thank you!! :D It's TWEWY, so I thought I'd try an edgier character design. xD ...and then I'll go back to drawing middle-aged men in suits. >3>

WE AGREE ON SOMETHING! 8D Actually, I think we agree on a lot of things and have a similar approach in our ways of reasoning... but sometimes you take one path and I take another, and we end up with different conclusions. xD RANDOM OBSERVATION! Sometimes I just notice we agree 100% on some things, and then differ completely on others. :9
But anyways. The "perfectionist" thing is a great example! I've notice that too, and because being a perfectionist is more or less a good thing, it's thrown around a lot more than other "quirky things". And it's interesting that you say "it would be rude to the [real] perfectionists", because a lot of times "real" perfectionists don't consider themselves perfectionists. As in, they're acting in a way that they normally would... and therefore don't easily see themselves as perfectionists because perfectionism = normal. So I guess what I'm trying to say is for a normal person perfectionism = beyond normal, which makes perfectionism desirable; but for a "real" perfectionist, perfectionism = normal, so there's no point in using the term. Idk, kind of a weird thing I think about sometimes as to why people don't call themselves by the label they're perceived as. Like why "hipsters" don't call themselves hipsters. I've been called hipster quite a bit in college now, but I just think I'm doing things the way I normally would and not in any "hipster-conscious" way. xD Since the hipsters don't consider themselves hipsters, are there really any hipsters at all? And the same with perfectionists.
BUT ANYWAY, THAT'S A DIFFERENT TOPIC. Thanks for reading that, if you did. haha...;;;

Yeah, I see that a whole ton on dA, and even with some people here on theO. I think it's fine to write gory or violent things, so long as you're not suggesting that it's violent, therefore it's meaningful. I don't say "it's sparkly and pretty, therefore it's meaningful", so I don't see why the bloody and violent things should be meaningful. I do understand the violent/bloody/angsty appeal, and people like it because of it's aesthetic appeal. It looks cool/interesting/exciting, so people are drawn to it.
Art/etc with rape/violence/blood can have meaning, but when it does have meaning it's almost always there to discourage rape/depression, not to say "DRAW MORE OF IT!" Drawing something violent without putting any thought behind it and subsequently slapping a "meaning" to it is, as you're suggesting, lazy.
(On another note, doing lazy art is okay with me if you're aware that you're doing lazy art. I more or less do the same thing.)

That's a really good point. Explaining is a really good thing! Recently, I've started to like asking people about why they like things/do things the way they do. Everyone has a reason for what they do, but unless they say, it the meaning won't exist for the rest of the world. Often times, my assumed reason for why someone does something and the real reason are different.
But idk, sometimes people like to "test" other people by reasoning "if you can understand why I like blood and death without me saying, then you're worthy of being my friend"... and then they get depressed because no one approaches them. :T It's pretty upsetting, really.
I think you would do well in a philosophy class, because you have to explain what you mean by everything you say.

It's okay, your comment was really interesting! ...so here's an extremely long reply. |D SORRY IN ADVANCE! (or not really in advance, since you've read down to here already...) Thanks for reading this monster, if you did! xD;

THIS IS AWESOME! Awesome character! She looks completely different from something you would usually do which is really good! ;D

I think her character design is totes awesome! I 100% agree with you and am happy that you share the same opinion that I do. People who try to be quirky just to be quirky bother me a ton...I me, they might be nice people...but it's a bit bothersome when people say 'I'm a perfectionist' when they aren't and I just like being annoying about making a desk straight or something just so that they can tell you that they are in fact a perfectionist. I would say that is rude to the perfectionists, but it isn't, it's just ignorance because they aren't using the word correctly or are just flinging it around to be quirky. I do not approve.

Also the thing about the poetry...that's what defines Deviantart...probably 90% of the poetry on there is 'Nobody understands me' 'I cut myself look at the blood because____' 'Rape. Rape. Rape' 'Blood guts and gore because that's true beauty'. Stuff like that...the same can be seen in the art. Also friends in my art class who were doing art for AP art did paintings like that and when they got bad scores they were like 'Nobody understands me'. No, we understand that you don't want to understand anything about humanity and are just touching the surface with black and red paint.

Also...one thing about any subculture which focuses on death and pain or whatever...I think it's just trying to scare other people. If you honestly think that what you are wearing it beautiful then explain it to someone, don't just conclude that they wouldn't understand. For instance, if you think death is beautiful explain it on their terms so they would understand. Obviously somebody else would not think its beautiful because they are afraid of death etc. etc.

Blahhhh....sorry for the ranting...just...I agree with you so much that I have to rant about agreeing with you! XD

The name thing is really cool, though~!

@Afterglow:

While that's usually not what I intend, it's usually what tends to happen. xD; Like with Gabe... who I still don't think is morally correct, but I can understand more or less why he does things the way he does them. SO PROBABLY, I will begin to understand Vanity Fanfare a litt meore. Although, I think I understand her kind of person and why she's right in her mind, but it's pretty far from the way I do things... Plus, she's not a protagonist like Gabe, so I don't want to necessarily put her in a positive light. SO IDK.

Thanks! 8D I like it too, so I hope I have the chance to draw her some. :V But I tend to ignore my RP characters a little more than my regular characters. *cough*Vevila*cough*

SO THAT'S WHERE IT CAME FROM!!!! I thought I had come up with "Vanity Fanfare" off the top of my head, but then found it weird that "Vanity Fair" was used in a book and is the name of a magazine. I forgot that was the name of the book you were reading! xD; I guess I just subconsciously stole that..............
Yeah, you were telling me about that Becky lady. Yep.

I hope you made her with character traits you disagree with so that you'll try to understand her! You know? Instead of hating this character as you're RPing as her, you will hopefully begin to understand why she is the way that she is and why she is right for being that way.
I actually really like her design. :'D When you get to RP as her and stuff, I hope you draw her more!!
p.s. I read like 3/4ths of Vanity Fair. It's an extremely cynical and melancholy book. Also the guy who wrote it seemed to think all his characters were vain and wrong, which made the book very interesting but also very weird and sour.

@moonlit dream:

Hehe~ XD Tweeny is a play on the words Teeny and Tween. Tween is like the ages between 10 to 14 year old, you know not yet a teen but older than a child, yet still not mature~ XD

@ChiPolVee:

Haha, thank you!! :D MELODRAMA: INITIATED.
What's Tweeny? :o

@KeybladeMewKasa:

DON'T DO IT.

Love her. Love it. I approve. I approve very much. Now! Let the melodrama commence!! Hehe, also, I read The World Ends With You shortened as Tweny and thought Tweeny so I was really confused why you or anyone wanted to involve themselves with that... Anyway, that's all I had to say~ XD

she's my new role model xoxo